Re: We need a new subject- bug fixes

Les Mikesell wrote:
Mikkel L. Ellertson wrote:

That is because they use more rational configuration method.

No they don't. Have you built a kernel from scratch that included
everything that fedora includes? Or apache with all the modules built?
It isn't fun - or very rational. However, you don't have to do that if
you install fedora. The point of the packaged distribution is that the
work is already done and maintained.

What does this have to do with configuring a service? You are really
having to struggle to come up with something to justify your
position. That should tell you something.
Maybe
if Sendmail did as well, it could be treated the more like other
services.

Sendmail does give you the opportunity to use a pre-built configuration.
Fedora just doesn't provide one that gives the upstream functionality.

And this relates to how easy it is to change the sendmail
configuration how?

This is the key - services with standard specifications. Sendmail is
non-standard when compared to other services.

There are standard specifications for mail behavior. None of the other
programs follow any standards for config files. How you make it do it
doesn't matter.

Oh, now you are saying that having to make a change in sendmail.mc,
and then generate a new sendmail.cf file doesn't matter. If that is
so, then what iis your problem with the current configuration?

So why should it be
treated like other services. Or are you saying that there should be
a configuration program that directly modifies sendmail.cf?

To put it in line with the way other fedora configurations work,
sendmail.mc should include lines from a directory under /etc/sysconfig
that would control a few common options and allow milters to add
themselves independently. There might be a system-config-sendmail
utility that controlled the settings of those optional lines. Like
other services, users should not need to edit the configs directly
unless they have non-standard environments.

Hmm - there is a file in /etc/sysconfig that controls how Sendmail
starts - this is the same as other daemons have. Or are you saying
that Sendmail should get special treatment here, but not other places?

To make something like this work, the startup script for Sendmail
check the time stamps on sendmail.cf and /etc/sysconfig/sendmail
and rebuild sendmail.cf before starting sendmail. This would require
everyone that runs Sendmail to install M4 and the Sendmail
configuration package even if they have no need to change the
default configuration.

Now, as far as non-standard environments, needing Sendmail to accept
connections from the Internet is a non-standard environment. Most
machines are not going to be an Internet mail server. So why should
the default configuration support it? From a security standpoint, it
is better to not accept connections from outside the machine unless
they are needed. This is why services like Apache, POP3, etc are not
turned on by default. Because a local mail server is needed for
proper operation of the system, Sendmail runs by default, but it
runs locked down. This works just fine for most users, and for the
ones it doesn't, there is a lot more configuration then just
enabling it to listen to other interfaces then 127.0.0.1.

If you
want a mail program that can be configured like other services, then
you need a mail server that is configured like other services.

No you don't. You need the distribution to handle it the way it does
the gazillion other programs it includes.

And how is that? Be specific. Explain, in detail, how you want
Sendmail to be handled. Not vague statements that do not tell us
anything except that you don't the way things are done. Then explain
how Sendmail can be configured this way, considering the way you
have to configure Sendmail. After all, you can not configure
Sendmail by just editing a config file the way you can most other
packages. But even if it was, it would not be the only program you
have to configure by hand.

You keep harping that Sendmail should accept incoming mail by
default,

I'm not sure I've ever said exactly that, but you keep saying I said it
for some reason. I'm saying enabling or disabling its access to the
network should be handled the way the distribution handles other programs.

Explain this. Or are you saying that the only thing necessary to
reconfigure Sendmail from a local machine only mail server to a
network mail server is to enable it to listen to other interfaces?

but you never give a valid reason why that should be the
default. Everything I hear comes back to "That is the way I use it,
so it should be configured that way."

Email would not be useful if someone doesn't accept network connections.
So even if not everyone needs it, clearly some do.

So what? That is about as smart as Microsoft starting a web server
on every server because some people might need it. That is very poor
security. If you need it, you turn it on as part of the other
configuration you need to do to turn a stand-alone mail server into
a network mail server.

What you can't seam to grasp
is that your setup will work for maybe 1% of the users.

OK, if those are the ones that are making email work for the rest of the
others, I'd consider them too important to ignore.

But they are not. So that argument falls flat too. The setup you
talk about would work for a stand-alone mail server. A small network
mail server requires more configuration. A large network requires a
lot more. Are you trying to say that someone would use Fedora in a
production environment and be able to use the stock configuration if
it listened to other interfaces? I find that hard to believe.

Mikkel
--

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons,
for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!

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