Re: Request Regarding the "Remove SELinux" Thread

On 9/26/07, Ric Moore <wayward4now@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mon, 2007-09-24 at 18:06 -0400, David Boles wrote:
on 9/24/2007 5:28 PM, Mike McCarty wrote:
David Boles wrote:
on 9/21/2007 5:56 PM, Mike McCarty wrote:

I'm sorry list but I just can't resist this. ;-)

This is something my parents said to me when I was a know-it-all teen.

We will miss you when you leave (my name was here) Mike. Write when you
find work. ;-)

I don't expect that any here will miss me.
Also, I don't particularly care.

I bet you actually would. <grins> I'd miss you for being so cantankerous
and as a Devil's Advocate! <chuckles>

Actually I was just trying to *****-slap you awake.

That's kinda "aggressive", don't you think? Does anyone -have- to live
up to our expectations? Myself, ...I think not.

There have been some
really experienced, knowledgeable, and important Linux people trying to
politely explain SELinux to you, both how and why, for several days.

And there you stand with your fingers in your ears and loudly saying
*la-la-la* I'm not listening!!

... it might be better to preface that statement with "From my
perception..." as that is what it is and not necessarily the case from
his point of view.

From what I have read you have the choice of using Fedora and disabling
SELinux. Or not using Fedora. Period. And I do not see Fedora making you a
special 'Mike' DVD to install without SELinux.

That has never been his point. I agree that it would be better for me,
as a user with little to no actual use for SELinux, to be able to remove
it.

Okay. Let's just say the answer to that is no.

Beagle comes to mind. And it does seem to waste a tick or two, even
completely turned off, from what I'm reading. I'm a speed freak, and
there are times when my system feels no faster than my old 486 DX/2 66
with 32 megs of memory did, running Caldera. These are my perceptions
and opinions. Remember, the "Geek Manifesto" is the pursuit of the
"Right Thing"... and that usually means a spirited intellectual debate.

Beagle was a waste of time AND it was easily removable.

Plenty of Hell was raised about Beagle to the point it seems to have
been ditched. It just didn't happen to be the "Right Thing". Most of the
people discussing SELinux were the very same ones who discussed the cons
of Beagle. So, it could happen that SELinux could be "Not Installed" as
an option at install time, if a modified kernel was available to be
installed, at that point.

If Fedora ditches SELinux and this trickles down to CentOS/RHEL, I
would stop using them.

And, if the apps could run with or without it,
if that was a part of the modifications that are being made anyway. I'm
not a coder, but it would seem that if an app can be modified to rely on
SELinux, at the same time another hook could be included to run without
it existing on the system at all.

Apps can run without SELinux, you should have understood that by now.

It merely becomes a decision to do so.
I think that omission is core to the debate... that Fedora cannot run
without it and/or months of hand editing a pile of source-code to make
it so.

Where are you getting this information? I have never seen what you're
saying here to be true.

We do have two camps of users here:

1.) Those that hail back to the Bob Young days, who have a historical
and personal stake in RedHat and it's success. In those days, the
individual users opinions counted and everyone was evangelical over
spreading the news about a potential "Windows Killer". The price was
relatively cheap for the box set to Joe <aka Lunch> Bucket. Many became
serious admins later on. Then SOMEBODY kicked users to the curb. IMHO,
that was not a good decision to make.

Listen, if you're stil bitching about that, you need to get help. I
was using Redhat before that happened, just like many others.

2.) Folks that are happy and excited to be in the fold of the new
paradigm of "Fedora" and be part of the test-bed to benefit RH
commercial users through endless beta-testing ...which is what it is
from my viewpoint and from reading the manifesto explaining the base
goals of the "Fedora Project".

Okay sir.

Older farts like me would like to see it nudged back towards the old
experience of a more-stable user version of RH, as that is where we
"grew-up". So, this "movement" to removing something as pervasive as
SELinux is how it was back when users could help define the very nature
of the distro and that was respected. Bob Young was all about the
end-user. I've met him on many occasions, especially after he hired me
in 1999.

So why don't you use CentOS instead of Fedora?

It's been real. And it's been fun. But it ain't been real fun.

But, it has been interesting, no?

No. Purely depressing at this point.

[ snip ]

I really miss the old RH days. I think others do too, and that might be
some old baggage that could be discarded after considerations, and just
move on. One way or the the other. It's a difficult decision to make
though. If I pound on Rahul, it's only because I miss the old days. So,
I apologize for that. Ric

Ok


--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

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