Re: Sorbet on Fedora's future

On 03/20/2010 10:05 AM, Craig White wrote:
On Sat, 2010-03-20 at 01:30 -0400, Marcel Rieux wrote:

So, if there was a place where I could report those bugs without
registering to 10,000 different bugzillas and dealing with
don't-give-a-shit geeks, I certainly would fill them and would be more
than interested in trying packages in update-testing to see if the fix
works. But I'm certainly not interested in enabling update-testing
just to see if new stuff i don't need works, and possibly break my

the reality is that packagers do not always have the time and
inclination to read lists such as this and the bug reporting systems
have gotten us this far so it's clearly working. If you choose not to
participate, then don't. I suspect that if your bug reports are as
unfocused as your rants, they are likely to be disregarded anyway.

If my problems do not concern Fedora/Red Hat developers directly, they
can address the bug to software developers upstream. If bugs take
years to be fixed, maybe they can suggest another software... or
desktop environment be used by default on Fedora. You know, Fedora/Red
Hat certainly has the clout to wake up developers. OTOH, if Red Hat
relies on disgruntled users to fill reports on bugs that never get
fixed, users won't be the only ones to suffer.

1 - your message doesn't get through to them. Bug reporting gets
2 - read this...
you should realize that it's not just Fedora but rather that all of
the various distributions only have so much manpower to package software
from upstream, let alone write patches/make changes. You have the source
code and you can suggest patches which would greatly accelerate the
process of getting things fixed but of course that requires requisite
knowledge of programming, etc. Standing on a soap box and shouting this
pretty much comes off as noise from the peanut gallery and suggests that
the you don't really have a clue on what is actually involved.

What I wrote here might be in part ill founded. When you're not a
developer, you can't comment with insight. It's an outsider's view,
but a very clear fact remains: whether it's only a rant or a
fullfledged case study, users must be allowed to express their POV
freely and it should be taken into consideration.

who is it that is supposed to take your POV into consideration? People
who don't read this list?

Chasing users away with "Why don't you fill (no-use) bug reports?" or
"You don't like it? The code is there, modify it!", the way it is
typically done on Debian and Slackware groups, leads to disaster.

yeah, it's the same kind of disaster that got Linux this far and got you
a complete OS to install for no cost at all. I can see why you think it
is a disaster.

If flame wars wouldn't have been so common in the community, if user
needs had been better taken care of, Debian could have achieved what
Mark Shuttlewort did, which is build a community, the largest user
base in the Linux world. So that, if you speak to Windows users
contemplating a move to Linux, the first distro that comes to their
mind is Ubuntu. That's because it's pretty much the only distribution
the generalist press talks about.

Ubuntu has tried to carve out the Desktop as its primary user base.
Honestly, I don't know why you aren't using Ubuntu instead of Fedora.

Now, Shuttlweworth is planning to offer an iTune look-alike service
for his users. He's going to bring some money in to pay his
developers. It's not the financial clout that Google gives to
ChromeOS, but it's a move in the right direction.

Maemo and ChromeOS are niche market products and not germane to
comparison to a complete distribution.

Apple, which is certainly far from showing an open-source attitude(1),
makes billions with BSD-based OS X using "repackaged" standard
no-real-specs-available(2) hardware and still gains market share over

I have personal feelings on this...
- Apple provides an inferior product if you care about installing open
source packages, UNIX or Linux compatibility.
- Apple is all about vendor lock-in much like Microsoft
- Apple donates little to the open source community

At 19 years old. Linux is certainly not a new kid on the block
anymore. How come, even with Ubuntu, it is still howering at around 1%
of the market share? How come all the brawlers who invade Linux
groups/forums/lists are still allowed to bash new users pretending
that market share is not important in order to be accepted in
standards definition, that they'll still be surfing the net with Lynx
ten years from now?

Most of the people I know using Linux are unconcerned about market
share. They use it because it works and it's cost effective. Sheep are
still sheep. If your yardstick only measures Linux value based upon
market share, then I'm afraid that it will come up short for many years
to come.

When, I installed the NVIDIA drivers, I went, first place, to Since Fedora couldn't provide instructions on
installing proprietary drivers, it seemed like an appropriate place.
But the instructions didn't work. It took some time before I got to
rpmfusion, the provider of the kmod package. Still, though I asked the
maintainer to correct his instructions, the Fedorafaq page is still

take it up with 'FedoraFAQ' and rpmfusion people. They do take feedback.
Their web sites are not operated by Fedora

IMO, Fedora releases will have to become much more stable and urgency
to get more market share will have to be established as a clear
priority. Very F-A-S-T. The Stable release update vision should be
followed "à la lettre".

If Fedora doesn't suit your needs there are a lot of other Linux
distributions available and one of the others might be more to your


I just came from Win 7 ultimate x64 and tested all the Linux Distros.
Interger speed was average with win 7 when I tested ubuntu, Debian,
Opensuse and the only one that gave me a huge increase in interger mips
was Fedora 12

I could be wrong and benchies from one platform to another could be out
but ubuntu gave me a interger speed of 9999 mips/core, win 7 7566
mips/core Debian 8560 mips / core.... Fedora 15600 mips/core

It was also the only package where I actually had success in Nvidia
Drivers installing correctly.

As far as I am concerned Fedora is it and I will never change from now on.

I just hope the next kernel update and nvidia drivers are compatible as
nouveau does not enable cuda device.

Cuda support with nouveau is needed


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