Re: Wasting our Freedom

On Sunday 16 September 2007 14:48:47 Can E. Acar wrote:
On Sunday 16 September 2007 15:23:25 Daniel Hazelton wrote:
On Sunday 16 September 2007 05:17:53 J.C. Roberts wrote:
On Sunday 16 September 2007, Jeff Garzik wrote:
J.C. Roberts wrote:
http://marc.info/?l=linux-wireless&m=118857712529898&w=2

Link with outdated info.

http://madwifi.org/browser/branches/ath5k

Link with outdated info.

I suggest actually taking the time to get the facts before making
completely baseless statements. When you make obviously erroneous
statements, it leaves everyone to believe you are either hopelessly
misinformed, or a habitual liar. -Which is it?

Please take a moment to understand the Linux development process.

A better place to look would be 'ath5k' branch of
git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/linville/wireless-dev.g
it

but nonethless, the fact remains that ath5k is STILL NOT UPSTREAM and
HAS NEVER BEEN UPSTREAM, as can be verified from

git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git
(official linux repo; nothing is official until it hits here)

Part of the reason why ath5k is not upstream is that developers are
actively addressing these copyright concerns -- as can be clearly
seen by the changes being made over time.

So let's everybody calm down, ok?

Regards,

Jeff

Jeff,

Look at what you are saying from a different perspective. Let's say
someone took the linux kernel source from the official repository,
removed the GPL license and dedicated the work to public domain or put
it under any other license, and for kicks back-dated the files so they
are older than the originals. Then they took this illegal license
removal copy of your code and put it in a public repository somewhere.

You'd be perfectly content with such a development because it had not
been officially brought "upstream" by the "offical" public domain or
whatever project?

But that isn't the situation being discussed. You've sent this mail to
the *LINUX* *KERNEL* ML, not the MadWifi ML. The patches in question were
not accepted into the Linux Kernel, so this is *NOT* the place to send
mail related to them.

You are so cleanly isolating and cutting away of a group of developers.
I sincerely hope your fellow developers will not cut you off if you
make a similar mistake. I know mine wont.

No, I'm saying "You are complaining about this in the wrong place and accusing
the wrong people of the misdeed."

What you are saying is, a Copyright violation done by someone else is
Somebody Else's Problem (tm). There are a couple of issues with this point
of view:

First, these developers got questionable advice from senior Linux kernel
developers, and SLFC (which is closely related to FSF) in the process.

IIRC, the advice was "Yes, it is legal to choose to follow only one of
multiple offered licenses on a project" - nothing else. They looked at the
patches and said "Wait, you've changed the license on files that aren't under
a dual license."

Hence, no problems here - no questionable advice only.

<snip>

*PLEASE* go do a Google search or check the MadWifi site for their
discussion list/forum/whatever and complain there.

This has been done. Really. They have been contacted privately
before the issue became public. Got no results. The issue is then made
public,
with the results you see now. This is no longer a MadWifi problem.

Then file the lawsuit - if they have violated the license and ignored requests
to fix the problem then there is sound legal grounds for it.

<snip>

If the OpenBSD developers want to attack the Linux Kernel community over
patches that were *NEVER* *ACCEPTED* by said community, it should be just
as fair for the Linux Kernel community to complain about those
(unspecified) times where OpenBSD replaced the GPL on code with the BSD
license.

It is fair. All license issues deserve utmost attention and respect by
all communities. If we let such issues to go unresolved, we face a
much greater danger to our work.

Yes, but in this case you are complaining to people that have no control over
the code in question. It's known that the patches are bad, and if people
continue to use them, then it is their problem and the problem of the
copyright holder.

<snip>

Is it too naive to hope that some leader/senior developer from the
Linux/FSF/GNU
whatever will take the clue stick and let the developers know what is
happening
is wrong. Being leaders in a community do have some responsibilities you
know.

And it has happened - the Linux Kernel community has commented on the
situation a *LOT* - to the extent that the patches in question were
rejected - long *BEFORE* Theo commented on it.

And, as said before, the place to take these complaints is the MadWifi
discussion area, since they are, apparently, the only people that
accepted the patches in question.

If the people who could fix the problem continued to ignore you, and the
people in leadership roles tell you then intend to steal your code,
then you would continue to get more angry and vocal about it.

*WE*, the people on the Linux Kernel ML, *CANNOT* "fix the problem" with
the *MADWIFI* code having accepted patches which violate Reyk's
copyright.

*WE* the OpenBSD people *DO NOT* want you to "fix the problem". We want you
to be aware of the issues, and react responsibly. A response from the
leaders
of their own community would have a MUCH GREATER impact in ending the
discussion
and ending all the trolling.

This has happened. Or are you ignoring the evidence in favor of more trolling
and FUD ?

But it appears, disowning them is a much convenient solution for most
"leaders".

Learn to read. It has happened.

Now take it one step further. For the sake of example, let's assume all
of this atheros driver nonsense went to a German court and the
GNU/FSF/SFLC/Linux or whoever you want to call yourselves lost a
criminal copyright infringement suit. You have now been legally proven
to be guilty code theft.

After such a ruling let's assume some jerk was to do the all the
horrific stuff mentioned in the first paragraph above to the linux
source tree, along with a little regex magic to call it something other
than "linux" and seeded the Internet with countless copies. At this
point, the GNU, FSF, GPL and all of the hard working Linux devs are now
stuffed. A company could download the bogus source, violate the now
missing GPL license, claim you stole the code from someplace else on
the `net and illegally put your GPL license on it... Worst of all, they
now have your past conviction of criminal code theft to back up their
assertion about the way you normally operate.

You should be concerned. The above is an immoral and illegal but still
practical attack on the GPL and all of hard work by many great people.
By having some people within the GNU/FSF/GPL camp indulging in code
theft to push their preferred license and the reasonable folks in the
GNU/FSF/GPL camp refusing to voice a strong opinion against code theft,
you are weakening your own license.

Linux Kernel != FSF/GNU

If it was then RMS would not be attacking Linus and Linux with faulty
claims just because Linus has publicly stated that the GPLv2 is a better
license than v3 and because Linux cannot, for numerous reasons, ever be
released under the GPLv3.

I repeat - Linux has *NOT* and will *NEVER* accept the patches in
question. If somebody else has, then go and yell at them about it. The
developers here, on the LINUX KERNEL MAILING LIST, have no control or
authority (in general) over projects such as MadWifi. If they have
accepted the faulty patches - and said patches are now part of their
code-base, then go tell them about it and make sure Theo gets the
message.

I repeat, you do NOT have to be in control of a project to take action.

The silence means you are fine with copyright violations. It means that if,
for some reason, we stopped (or did not start) yelling, then you would
let it be.

No, I'm not. In fact, I don't use MadWifi, endorse it or even like it. I even
advise people *NOT* to use it. Or is that *NOT* enough for you?

DRH


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