Re: [ANNOUNCE]: Generic SCSI Target Mid-level For Linux (followup)

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 20:28 -0700, Nicholas A. Bellinger wrote:
On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 22:41 +0400, Vladislav Bolkhovitin wrote:
Nicholas A. Bellinger wrote:
And this is a real showstopper for making LIO-Core
the default and the only SCSI target framework. SCST is SCSI-centric,
Well, one needs to understand that LIO-Core subsystem API is more than a
SCSI target framework. Its a generic method of accessing any possible
storage object of the storage stack, and having said engine handle the
hardware restrictions (be they physical or virtual) for the underlying
storage object. It can run as a SCSI engine to real (or emualted) SCSI
hardware from linux/drivers/scsi, but the real strength is that it sits
above the SCSI/BLOCK/FILE layers and uses a single codepath for all
underlying storage objects. For example in the lio-core-2.6.git tree, I
chose the location linux/drivers/lio-core, because LIO-Core uses 'struct
file' from fs/, 'struct block_device' from block/ and struct scsi_device
from drivers/scsi.
SCST and iSCSI-SCST, basically, do the same things, except iSCSI MC/S
and related, + something more, like 1-to-many pass-through and
scst_user, which need a big chunks of code, correct? And they are
together about 2 times smaller:

Yes, something much more. A complete implementation of traditional
iSCSI/TCP (known as RFC-3720), iSCSI/SCTP (which will be important in
the future), and IPv6 (also important) is a significant amount of logic.
When I say a 'complete implementation' I mean:

I) Active-Active connection layer recovery (known as
ErrorRecoveryLevel=2). (We are going to use the same code for iSER for
inter-nexus OS independent (eg: below the SCSI Initiator level)
recovery. Again, the important part here is that recovery and
outstanding task migration happens transparently to the host OS SCSI
subsystem. This means (at least with iSCSI and iSER): not having to
register multiple LUNs and depend (at least completely) on SCSI WWN
information, and OS dependent SCSI level multipath.

II) MC/S for multiplexing (same as I), as well as being able to
multiplex across multiple cards and subnets (using TCP, SCTP has
multi-homing). Also being able to bring iSCSI connections up/down on
the fly, until we all have iSCSI/SCTP, is very important too.

III) Every possible combination of RFC-3720 defined parameter keys (and
provide the apparatis to prove it). And yes, anyone can do this today
against their own Target. I created core-iscsi-dv specifically for
testing LIO-Target <-> LIO-Core back in 2005. Core-iSCSI-DV is the
_ONLY_ _PUBLIC_ RFC-3720 domain validation tool that will actually
demonstrate, using ANY data integrity tool complete domain validation of
user defined keys. Please have a look at:

http://linux-iscsi.org/index.php/Core-iscsi-dv

http://www.linux-iscsi.org/files/core-iscsi-dv/README

Any traditional iSCSI target mode implementation + Storage Engine +
Subsystem Plugin that thinks its ready to go into the kernel will have
to pass at LEAST the 8k test loop interations, the simplest being:

HeaderDigest, DataDigest, MaxRecvDataSegmentLength (512 -> 262144, in
512 byte increments)

Core-iSCSI-DV is also a great indication of stability and data integrity
of hardware/software of an iSCSI Target + Engine, espically when you
have multiple core-iscsi-dv nodes hitting multiple VHACS clouds on
physical machines within the cluster. I have never run IET against
core-iscsi-dv personally, and I don't think Ming or Ross has either.

Ming or Ross, would you like to make a comment on this, considering
after it, it is your work..?

hot water here ;)

i never run that test on iet, probably nobody. if someone actually ran
the test and find the failed case, i believe there are people who want
to fix it.

why not both of you write/reuse some test scripts to test a most
advanced/fast target and let the number to talk?




So
until SOMEONE actually does this first, I think that iSCSI-SCST is more
of an experiment for your our devel that a strong contender for
Linux/iSCSI Target Mode.

There are big doubts among storage experts if features I and II are
needed at all, see, e.g. http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/2/5/331.

Well, jgarzik is both a NETWORKING and STORAGE (he was a networking guy
first, mind you) expert!

I also tend
to agree, that for block storage on practice MC/S is not needed or, at
least, definitely doesn't worth the effort, because:


Trying to agrue against MC/S (or against any other major part of
RFC-3720, including ERL=2) is saying that Linux/iSCSI should be BEHIND
what the greatest minds in the IETF have produced (and learned) from
iSCSI. Considering so many people are interested in seeing Linux/iSCSI
be best and most complete implementation possible, surely one would not
be foolish enough to try to debate that Linux should be BEHIND what
others have figured out, be it with RFCs or running code.

Also, you should understand that MC/S is more than about just moving
data I/O across multiple TCP connections, its about being able to bring
those paths up/down on the fly without having to actually STOP/PAUSE
anything. Then you then add the ERL=2 pixie dust, which you should
understand, is the result of over a decade of work creating RFC-3720
within the IETF IPS TWG. What you have is a fabric that does not
STOP/PAUSE from an OS INDEPENDENT LEVEL (below the OS dependent SCSI
subsystem layer) perspective, on every possible T/I node, big and small,
open or closed platform. Even as we move towards more logic in the
network layer (a la Stream Control Transmission Protocol), we will still
benefit from RFC-3720 as the years roll on. Quite a powerful thing..

1. It is useless for sync. untagged operation (regular reads in most
cases over a single stream), when always there is only one command being
executed at any time, because of the commands connection allegiance,
which forbids transferring data for a command over multiple connections.


This is a very Parallel SCSI centric way of looking at design of SAM.
Since SAM allows the transport fabric to enforce its own ordering rules
(it does offer some of its own SCSI level ones of course). Obviously
each fabric (PSCSI, FC, SAS, iSCSI) are very different from the bus
phase perspective. But, if you look back into the history of iSCSI, you
will see that an asymmetric design with seperate CONTROL/DATA TCP
connections was considered originally BEFORE the Command Sequence Number
(CmdSN) ordering algoritim was adopted that allows both SINGLE and
MULTIPLE TCP connections to move both CONTROL/DATA packets across a
iSCSI Nexus.

Using MC/S with a modern iSCSI implementation to take advantage of lots
of cores and hardware threads is something that allows one to multiplex
across multiple vendor's NIC ports, with the least possible overhead, in
the OS INDEPENDENT manner. Keep in mind that you can do the allocation
and RX of WRITE data OOO, but the actual *EXECUTION* down via the
subsystem API (which is what LIO-Target <-> LIO-Core does, in a generic
way) MUST BE in the same over as the CDBs came from the iSCSI Initiator
port. This is the only requirement for iSCSI CmdSN order rules wrt the
SCSI Architecture Model.

2. The only advantage it has over traditional OS multi-pathing is
keeping commands execution order, but on practice at the moment there is
no demand for this feature, because all OS'es I know don't rely on
commands order to protect data integrity. They use other techniques,
like queue draining. A good target should be able itself to scheduler
coming commands for execution in the correct from performance POV order
and not rely for that on the commands order as they came from initiators.


Ok, you are completely missing the point of MC/S and ERL=2. Notice how
it works in both iSCSI *AND* iSER (even across DDP fabrics!). I
discussed the significant benefit of ERL=2 in numerious previous
threads. But they can all be neatly summerized in:

http://linux-iscsi.org/builds/user/nab/Inter.vs.OuterNexus.Multiplexing.pdf

Internexus Multiplexing is DESIGNED to work with OS dependent multipath
transparently, and as a matter of fact, it complements it quite well, in
a OSI (independent) method. Its completely up to the admin to determine
the benefit and configure the knobs.

So, the bit: "We should not implement this important part of the RFC
just because I want some code in the kernel" is not going to get your
design very far.

From other side, devices bonding also preserves commands execution
order, but doesn't suffer from the connection allegiance limitation of
MC/S, so can boost performance ever for sync untagged operations. Plus,
it's pretty simple, easy to use and doesn't need any additional code. I
don't have the exact numbers of MC/S vs bonding performance comparison
(mostly, because open-iscsi doesn't support MC/S, but very curious to
see them), but have very strong suspicious that on modern OS'es, which
do TCP frames reorder in zero-copy manner, there shouldn't be much
performance difference between MC/S vs bonding in the maximum possible
throughput, but bonding should outperform MC/S a lot in case of sync
untagged operations.


Simple case here for you to get your feet wet with MC/S. Try doing
bonding across 4x GB/sec ports on 2x socket 2x core x86_64 and compare
MC/S vs. OS dependent networking bonding and see what you find. There
about two iSCSI initiators for two OSes that implementing MC/S and
LIO-Target <-> LIO-Target. Anyone interested in the CPU overhead on
this setup between MC/S and Link Layer bonding across 2x 2x 1 Gb/sec
port chips on 4 core x86_64..?

Anyway, I think features I and II, if added, would increase iSCSI-SCST
kernel side code not more than on 5K lines, because most of the code is
already there, the most important part which missed is fixes of locking
problems, which almost never add a lot of code.

You can think whatever you want. Why don't you have a look at
lio-core-2.6.git and see how big they are for yourself.

Relating Core-iSCSI-DV,
I'm sure iSCSI-SCST will pass it without problems among the required set
of iSCSI features, although still there are some limitations, derived
from IET, for instance, support for multu-PDU commands in discovery
sessions, which isn't implemented. But for adding to iSCSI-SCST optional
iSCSI features there should be good *practical* reasons, which at the
moment don't exist. And unused features are bad features, because they
overcomplicate the code and make its maintainance harder for no gain.


Again, you can think whatever you want. But since you did not implement
the majority of the iSCSI-SCST code yourself, (or implement your own
iSCSI Initiator in parallel with your own iSCSI Target), I do not
believe you are in a position to say. Any IET devs want to comment on
this..?

So, current SCST+iSCSI-SCST 36K lines + 5K new lines = 41K lines, which
still a lot less than LIO's 63K lines. I downloaded the cleanuped
lio-core-2.6.git tree and:


Blindly comparing lines of code with no context is usually dumb. But,
since that is what you seem to be stuck on, how about this:

LIO 63k +
SCST (minus iSCSI) ??k +
iSER from STGT ??k ==

For the complete LIO-Core engine on fabrics, and which includes what
Rafiu from Openfiler has been so kind to call LIO-Target, "arguably the
most feature complete and mature implementation out there (on any
platform) "

$ find lio-core-2.6/drivers/lio-core -type f -name "*.[ch]"|xargs wc
57064 156617 1548344 total

Still much bigger.

Obviously not. Also, what I was talking about there was the strength
and flexibility of the LIO-Core design (it even ran on the Playstation 2
at one point, http://linux-iscsi.org/index.php/Playstation2/iSCSI, when
MIPS r5900 boots modern v2.6, then we will do it again with LIO :-)

SCST and the target drivers have been successfully ran on PPC and
Sparc64, so I don't see any reasons, why it can't be ran on Playstation
2 as well.


Oh it can, can it..? Does your engine memory allocation algoritim
provide for a SINGLE method for allocating linked list scatterlists
containing page links of ANY (not just PAGE_SIZE) size handled
generically across both internal or preregistered memory allocation
acases, or coming from say, a software RNIC moving DDP packets for iSCSI
in a single code path..?

And then it needs to be able to go down to the PS2-Linux PATA driver,
that does not show up under the SCSI subsystem mind you. Surely you
understand that because the MIPS r5900 is a non cache coherent
architecture that you simply cannot allocate out multiple page
contigious scatterlists for your I/Os, and simply expect it to work when
we are sending blocks down to the 32-bit MIPS r3000 IOP..?

- Pass-through mode (PSCSI) also provides non-enforced 1-to-1
relationship, as it used to be in STGT (now in STGT support for
pass-through mode seems to be removed), which isn't mentioned anywhere.

Please be more specific by what you mean here. Also, note that because
PSCSI is an LIO-Core subsystem plugin, LIO-Core handles the limitations
of the storage object through the LIO-Core subsystem API. This means
that things like (received initiator CDB sectors > LIO-Core storage
object max_sectors) are handled generically by LIO-Core, using a single
set of algoritims for all I/O interaction with Linux storage systems.
These algoritims are also the same for DIFFERENT types of transport
fabrics, both those that expect LIO-Core to allocate memory, OR that
hardware will have preallocated memory and possible restrictions from
the CPU/BUS architecture (take non-cache coherent MIPS for example) of
how the memory gets DMA'ed or PIO'ed down to the packet's intended
storage object.
See here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-scsi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx/msg06911.html


<nod>

- There is some confusion in the code in the function and variable
names between persistent and SAM-2 reservations.
Well, that would be because persistent reservations are not emulated
generally for all of the subsystem plugins just yet. Obviously with
LIO-Core/PSCSI if the underlying hardware supports it, it will work.
What you did (passing reservation commands directly to devices and
nothing more) will work only with a single initiator per device, where
reservations in the majority of cases are not needed at all.

I know, like I said, implementing Persistent Reservations for stuff
besides real SCSI hardware with LIO-Core/PSCSI is a TODO item. Note
that the VHACS cloud (see below) will need this for DRBD objects at some
point.

The problem is that persistent reservations don't work for multiple
initiators even for real SCSI hardware with LIO-Core/PSCSI and I clearly
described why in the referenced e-mail. Nicholas, why don't you want to
see it?


Why don't you provide a reference in the code to where you think the
problem is, and/or problem case using Linux iSCSI Initiators VMs to
demonstrate the bug..?

The more in fighting between the
leaders in our community, the less the community benefits.
Sure. If my note hurts you, I can remove it. But you should also remove
from your presentation and the summary paper those psychological
arguments to not confuse people.

Its not about removing, it is about updating the page to better reflect
the bigger picture so folks coming to the sight can get the latest
information from last update.
Your suggestions?


I would consider helping with this at some point, but as you can see, I
am extremly busy ATM. I have looked at SCST quite a bit over the years,
but I am not the one making a public comparision page, at least not
yet. :-) So until then, at least explain how there are 3 projects on
your page, with the updated 10,000 ft overviews, and mabye even add some
links to LIO-Target and a bit about VHACS cloud. I would be willing to
include info about SCST into the Linux-iSCSI.org wiki. Also, please
feel free to open an account and start adding stuff about SCST yourself
to the site.

For Linux-iSCSI.org and VHACS (which is really where everything is going
now), please have a look at:

http://linux-iscsi.org/index.php/VHACS-VM
http://linux-iscsi.org/index.php/VHACS

Btw, the VHACS and LIO-Core design will allow for other fabrics to be
used inside our cloud, and between other virtualized client setups who
speak the wire protocol presented by the server side of VHACS cloud.

Many thanks for your most valuable of time,


New v0.8.15 VHACS-VM images online btw. Keep checking the site for more details.

Many thanks for your most valuable of time,

--nab


--
Ming Zhang


@#$%^ purging memory... (*!%
http://blackmagic02881.wordpress.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/blackmagic02881
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