[SLE] Re: A better SuSE Support DB?
From: Phil Mocek (pmocek-list-suse_at_mocek.org)
Date: 04/15/04
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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:34:34 -0700 To: suse-linux-e@suse.com
On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 09:53:06PM +0100, Mark wrote:
> In the longer term a company may also have to account for the
> loss of revenue from those who bought another distribution
> instead because the competitor's support seemed more attractive,
> for whatever reason.
Or, leaving support out of it, they need to consider loss of
revenue from those who decided to use a different distribution
because a competitor's documentation or simply the quality of
their packaging, seemed more attractive.
Discussion on this thread seems to repeatedly confuse support with
the publication of documentation. With thorough, quality,
documentation, you don't need support unless you haven't the time
to read documentation or are lacking the skills to understand it.
> That loss could end up severe even if it can never be fully
> quantified.
Definitely. In my case, I recommended SuSE for use by a client
who was rebuilding a previously-Windows-NT box and purchasing a
new one, mainly because of the fact that on their short list of
Linux distributions (Debian, Mandrake, and SuSE) only SuSE is
officially supported by the bulk of third-party software
publishers. This client only has a couple of machines now, but
that number is likely to grow. The closest they come to the need
for support right now is when they have questions about broken
software that is not documented, or questions about ``the SuSE
way'' of doing something that is not documented. They were happy
to buy the SuSE Professional 9.0 retail box, rather than just
installing from the 'net, to throw some cash at the people behind
the product.
This list, though, has made it pretty clear that SuSE Linux
Professional, unfortunately, is really not intended for
professional use. This is not to say it isn't a great
distribution for some purposes, but even the simple fact that
there is no changelog for SuSE packages makes it unsuitable for
many business purposes. It would be irresponsible for me to go
installing an upgraded package without knowing what has changed,
since the last release, or install a package knowing that the
author may be aware of problems but is unwilling to share that
knowledge.
Given the fact that the closest SuSE comes to publishing known
issues for their software (and ``their software'' consists
primarily of their installer, a custom-compiled Linux kernel,
YaST/SuSEconfig, and their SuSE-fied repackaging of software
written/maintained by GNU and others) is the SDB, a big list of
symptoms and suggested remedies without any direct link to the
individual packages that comprise SuSE Linux, I just can't imagine
using SuSE for anything besides, say, a home machine on which I
want to just install the whole ball o' wax and leave it alone
until the next major distro version is released.
That policy doesn't work well when you want to tighten security by
installing the minimum set of software that meets your needs, and
then install additional packages as needed in the future.
Remember, a Linux distribution like SuSE, Mandrake, Red Hat, or
Debian, is a bunch of individual packages that are individually
maintained and can be individually installed or removed. This
idea is foreign to many people because Windows isn't done that
way. It's good, though, because it allows you a great deal of
freedom in just how lean or full-featured your installation will
be. With a good package management system, package installation,
upgrade, and removal are no-brainers.
Since all these pieces are individually maintained, it makes sense
that you'd track information for each of them individually. All
the Free Software you could possibly need in order to do so
efficiently is out there for the taking. I don't know how Red Hat
or Mandrake or others do so, but for Debian, you can go see an
example of it at:
<http://packages.debian.org/stable/net/ntp>
<http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=ntp>
I'm not trying to start a holy war, here, but that's just a really
good example of someone else is doing, and what SuSE might do
someday.
I might still recommend SuSE to home users moving to Linux from
Windows, but the culture surrounding it is just not right for
serious business use. Instead of actively seeking descriptions of
problems so that improvements can be made, everybody takes it
personally and gets defensive or points to a short-sighted
workaround as if it were an adequate solution.
Maybe SLES is better suited for business use, but it's not likely
that my client and I are never going to find out, since SuSE is
all but chasing us away. (This is where that loss of potential
revenue comes into play.)
> Just my 2 cents but I wish SuSE had a web bbs forum instead of
> or in addition to a mailing list.
First: go see if Gmane comes close to meeting your needs. It's a
mailing-list-to-newsgroup bridge with a good Web interface. The
SuSE lists are archived there. <http://news.gmane.org/>
And now my 20 cents: anything that goes in a Web-based forum would
usually be better off in a newsgroup. I am absolutely positive
that if more people were comfortable with NNTP software (news
readers like Agent, Pan, etc.) and used serious MUAs (mail user
agents; e-mail client software) that showed message threads
properly (or at all), we wouldn't have to go dig through a
gazillion different BBSs/forums on a gazillion different Web
sites, with at least five or ten different interfaces, to find the
information we need these days.
When you start dealing with lots of volume, it's just not
practical to go browse a bunch of Web sites if your alternative is
one standard interface to information/discussions/groups/whatever
that is pushed to you or to which you have subscribed.
My standard grumble about Web forums is that for C or C++ or Perl,
nearly anything I could want to know has been discussed on Usenet,
and I can search or browse all of it from one place. When it
comes to Java, I have to start digging through forums. Sun's
forums. JGuru's forums. And on and on and on and on. Worse, if
one of the hosts of these forums ever decides to withdraw it, it's
gone. Usenet archives will never disappear because they are
mirrored everywhere. Smiley face icons and nonstop ``bump'' or
``k+ to ya'' messages just clutter things. </rant>
-- Phil Mocek -- Check the headers for your unsubscription address For additional commands send e-mail to suse-linux-e-help@suse.com Also check the archives at http://lists.suse.com Please read the FAQs: suse-linux-e-faq@suse.com
- Previous message: Doug McGarrett: "Re: [SLE] "ideal" motherboard etc?"
- In reply to: Mark: "Re: [SLE] A better SuSE Support DB?: was something else"
- Next in thread: chris h: "Re: [SLE] Re: A better SuSE Support DB?"
- Reply: chris h: "Re: [SLE] Re: A better SuSE Support DB?"
- Reply: Jake: "Re: [SLE] Re: A better SuSE Support DB?"
- Reply: Anders Johansson: "Re: [SLE] Re: A better SuSE Support DB?"
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