Re: [opensuse] kde 4.5.2 - still can't place focus in konqueror in detail view with selection markers off
- From: Rodney Baker <rodney.baker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 9 Oct 2010 02:31:37 +1030
On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 01:22:05 Sven Burmeister wrote:
On Friday 08 October 2010 16:06:32 Peter Van Lone wrote:[...]
the "tool meant to be used for selecting files" is not
accepted/understood or liked much by people.
Is it? I did not see any complains on this list or the kde one over the
last few weeks/months.
Just because we don't complain doesn't mean we like it. It sucks!
It seems an awkward and
unlikely extra bit when we can simply left-click on the thing to
select it, and then use ctrl or shift to extend the selection to other
objects.
Only if you explain every new computer user that he has to use CTRL and
SHIFT for that. Or you add a hint to the GUI and thus make it easy to
discover which is what the appearing "+" is.
How many new KDE users are new computer users? IMHO by far the majority of
those trying KDE for the first time come from other de's, whether alternatives
on Linux (e.g. Gnome, LXDE, Fluxbox etc.), Windows or Mac (in their various
iterations).
Just about everywhere else that I've come across CTRL-Click (for selecting a
non-contiguous range of files) and SHIFT-Click (for selecting a contiguous
range) are long-time accepted conventions that are well understood by anyone
with a modicum of gui experience. OK, they may not be the most efficient
paradigm but they are the most common. Changing that for the sake of change
leads to confusion and frustration.
Having said that, I *like* KDE 4 and have been using it since 4.0.4 (and
exclusively without recourse to 3.x since 4.1.x). I just think some of the
default settings are opposite from what they should be, but it's not worth
bitching about. Even Windows allows you to change the behaviour from double to
single click for launching (ever since they introduced the "web desktop"
somewhere around Win 98 - it just wasn't the default mode of operation.
So I claim using CTRL and SHIFT for selecting files is rather less
straight- fowrward because you cannot know about it without learning it or
reading about it since there are no hints in the GUI. Why CTRL and not
ALT? Why SHIFT for selecting one way and CTRL the other, why not the other
way around? Why is a key that is used to switch to uppercase used for
selecting multiple files, where is the obvious link between the two
features to map them to the same key? Where is the logic? Or was it not
rather something set-up artificially and learnt rather than a good design
usability-wise?
There are only 102-108 keys on a "standard" PC (QWERTY) keyboard and only a
few are "modifier" keys which, in pre-gui days, were carried-over (for the
most part, with some minor changes) from typewriters and dedicated word-
processors (to keep the typists happy). The advent of the gui meant new
paradigms and the adoption of some additional uses for the existing modifier
keys (Alt-Shift-Ctrl). Some of the key combinations also carried over from
mainframe terminals Yes, I know, that means that they're all done for purely
historical reasons and because so far no-one has come up with a "better"
alternative that is intuitive and easily re-learned by experienced users with
a long background in computing.
The KDE devs probably argue that they have now come up with that alternative -
that is their prerogative. Some who've tried it disagree - that is our
prerogative. All we ask is the defaults be set to suit the majority of
potential users (those who are familiar with the "current" (or old, depending
on your point of view) way of doing things and let those who want to switch to
the new paradigm, rather than confusing and frustrating the hell out of people
until they figure out how to switch back to their preferred way of doing
things.
Instead the devs chose the new selection tool which
is a lot easier to understand for new users which do not know about
holding CTRL in order to select multiple files.
says who?
Common sense? How do you know about CTRL being linked to slecting multiple
files? Did you guess? Was it obvious? Was it a hint the GUI gave you? You
learnt it.
Yes. Many, many years ago. Windows 3.0 circa 1992/93 in fact. Before that, it
was all done via the kb - mice were pretty useless with dos-based apps like
Lotus 1-2-3 v1 and Wordstar/Word Perfect... ;-)
BTW, we still have Tab, Ctrl-Tab, Alt-Tab and Shift-Tab that all do pretty
much the same things as they did back then for moving around between tabs,
windows, panes, menus, selecting from lists etc. without using the mouse. That
is another reason why the Ctrl-click and Shift-click hung around for so long,
because Ctrl+Space (or Ctrl-+ and Ctrl- -)and Shift-Up/Down did selection long
before mice came along, so keeping the same modifiers for use with the mouse
made sense then.
Another thing - for most operations, even with a gui, a touch typist will be
much faster on the keyboard using shortcuts than by moving one hand to the
mouse. All the more reason to maintain consistency of modifier functions
between kb and mouse modes of operation.
Maybe there aren't too many touch typists among the KDE devs, though - KDE 4
seems to be much more mouse-bound than earlier de's which isn't necessarily A
Good Thing(TM).
Just my $0.02AUD worth (which is worth a bit more than it used to be given the
current strength of our currency ;-) ). I'll go back and lurk in the corner
now :-).
--
===================================================
Rodney Baker VK5ZTV
rodney.baker@xxxxxxxxxxxx
===================================================
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