Re: WARNING to potential LINUX users

From: David Wright (david_c_wright_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 10/20/04 

Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:26:58 +0200

markzoom wrote:

> David Wright <david_c_wright@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<cl5cge$k5k$00$1@news.t-online.com>...
>> markzoom wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> >
>> >> This is not an advocacy group.
>> >
>> > I'm beginning to get a pretty good idea of what kind of group this
>> > really is.
>>
>> A really helpful place for people with problems and take the time to
>> explain what problems they are having and want answers to their
>> questions. There are a few people who act immature and rant when somebody
>> starts trolling, or makes a troll-like statement. Both the troll-like
>> statements and the flaming that follows lower the tone of the newsgroup
>> and have no place in this newsgroup.
>
> Fair enough.
>
>>
>> This newsgroup is, normally, for people with specific problems with SuSE
>> who want answers to those questions, and many of us have the patience to
>> answer those questions.
>
> One of my problems is that no-one pointed out that Linux actually only
> supports some of the hardware. Step one, BEFORE buying, is to inform
> the buyer that only some of the hardware can be run by it, instead of
> taking it for granted that the buyer knows how limited the product is
> (I think it may even be illegal not to inform them).

Depends on the products and more specifically the manufacturers. Support is
growing, but as has been discussed thoroughly elsewhere in the thread,
writing drivers for win-crippled devices isn't always easy and some
manufacturers won't invest in writing drivers for Linux, just as they
wouldn't invest in writing drivers for Windows 95 or Windows NT nearly a
decade ago... A lot of the same arguments you are bringing up here were
made when people switched to Windows NT and slightly less so, when they
switched to Windows 95 from DOS/Windows 3.1.

There are plenty of information sites around (linuxprinting.org for example)
which have databases of peripherals that are supported.

I must say, I've never come across a device which isn't supported by SuSE on
my equipment, 2 of the machines bought before I thought of switching to
Linux, 1 bought "off-the-shelf" to try Linux on (everything worked, and I
didn't check anything against a compatibility list), and a new 64-bit
machine built to custom specification, but not paying attention to any
compatibility lists; but choosing highly regarded quality industry standard
peripherals. Maybe I've just been lucky, maybe you were just unlucky...

>>
>> In an un-moderated forum such as this, there will always be people
>> providing unhelpful posts (both in the "Linux is dreadful, go back to
>> Windows" variety and then the people flaming the OP); these types of
>> posts have no place here, please take them to an advocacy group or take
>> up the dispute by e-mail.
>
> If you see the title of the thread I started, I had reason to place in
> in a NG that newbies frequent.

Sorry, I wasn't referring to the original post specifically, although it
wasn't written in the best way, it sounded angry, aggressive and a little
illconceived. It could possibly have been more rationally written, but what
is done is done.

What I was actually referring to was the continual bashing backwards and
forwards that is degenerating into more and more base language, and
personal insults rather than informed debate, that it has prompted, and I
wasn't singling you out for criticism here, you'll not I also took replied
to Peter - and whatever his intentions, he does tend to inflame people and
as somebody else has pointed out, he isn't always a good advert for Linux
users :-(

>>
>> >> If you are too stupid to use anything else
>> >> than your preconfigured Wintendo, fine.
>> >
>> > If you are too moronic to want more people using Linux then you're
>> > pretty dim yourself. You can't even figure why a crap OS like Windows
>> > *still* has far more users than FREE Linux.
>>
>> Because Windows comes pre-installed on most machines, the user doesn't
>> have a choice, and the user doesn't have to install the software
>> themselves.
>
> That's a cop-out. It's only one of various reasons, few of which are
> actually being addressed by the writers of Linux.
> Here are some:
> Hardware incompatability

A high percentage of hardware works with Linux (or Linux works with...
whichever way you want to look at it) and that is often thanks to the
programmers that program Linux. Microsoft pretty much gave up on writing
drivers when Windows 95 came out - they may program for new standards like
USB Plug-and-Play or Bluetooth (BT stack is now standard with XP SP2 for
example), but, for example, even "industry standard" hardware such as
nVidia or ATi graphic cards aren't recognised by Windows, it just installs
a generic SGA/XGA Vesa driver usually.

> Ease of use for beginners

Same argument buy a pre-configured Linux box, a complete beginner probably
wouldn't have a much hard time than with Windows... Installing it
themselves? Same as installing Windows themselves, forget it.

> Ease of use for those converting from windows

Depends on their willingness to learn. Some people enjoy the challenge of
learning something new and can quickly pick things up, others try it and
because it doesn't work the way they expect, think it stinks and is
un-intuitive (this doesn't just apply to the Windows/Linux debate, but to
all areas of life - think of the people who won't try new foods because it
isn't doesn't look/smell like what they are used to).

> Lack of readable instructions

SuSE 9.1 Professional comes with 2 manuals of over 1100 pages (German
version), my Windows XP Professional upgrade came in an A3 cardboard folder
with 3 sides of writing, the OEM version for the new machine around 150
sides, add to that the OEM version of Office XP (0 sides) or the upgrade
version (another 150 pages), it is pretty poor in comparison.

> Lack of useful help menus

Can't really comment, I've only tried a handful of Man pages, I haven't
needed much help so far. What I've found was useful.

>
>> Give an average user a new machine with a Windows CD and a SuSE CD, you
>> will probably find in many cases, the SuSE install gets a lot farther
>> than the Windows one, mainly because Windows doesn't support very much
>> hardware "out of the box".
>
> It prompts for the driver if it doesn't have it, no typing involved,
> just (limited) clicking.

Windows XP Setup faced with a S-ATA drive will stop saying that there isn't
a usable hard disk drive in the machine; if you didn't spot that you must
press a key to load the driver within a 5 second period - I missed it the
first couple of times I tried. It doesn't prompt you at all, it just
carries on until it can't get any further then stops without the option of
loading a driver.

>> With a plethora of third party CD's and downloads to
>> patch the system, Windows will work quite well.
>>
>> A pre-configured Windows machine is relatively easy to use, no dispute
>> there, but a pre-configured SuSE (or most other distros) will be equally
>> easy to use. The problem is, most don't or can't compare like with like,
>> which is a shame. They start with a pre-configured Windows machine and
>> try and install another OS, then complain the other OS is a complete pain
>> to set-up and configure, but they haven't tried to install Windows
>> without third party support on the same hardware (I am not saying that is
>> your case, just in general).
>
> Sure, but I dread to think of the problems Joe Average will have when
> he comes home with the latest Gysmo and tries to install it in Linux.

If he already has Linux, then he will probably check to make sure it has
Linux drivers before buying - look at the iPod for example, that didn't
work with Windows for a long time...

>>
>> Installing an OS takes knowledge and skill, whether it be Windows, Linux,
>> Unix etc. And no OS comes with drivers for every single peripheral device
>> on the market
>
> Show me some home-use hardware that doesn't come with a windows
> driver.
>

The original iPod? Psion Series 3, 3a, 5 and Revo - Windows software was
usually a cost option (OK, old hardware that isn't available anymore, but
they didn't come with Windows software). Today the position has changed
greatly, nearly everything has a Windows driver, but as stated above, when
Windows 95/NT came out it had exactly the same problem, you could get an
Apple or DOS driver, but it wouldn't work with Windows...

>> - heck, Windows XP refused to believe I had a hard disk in my
>> new PC until I had gone back to the shop and bought a floppy drive, gone
>> to the motherboard manufacturers website and downloaded a driver, copied
>> to a blank floppy (another trip to the shop, I didn't have any usable
>> floppies at home, because I haven't used a floppy drive for about 7 years
>> and the couple I had kicking around in the bottom of a cupboard wouldn't
>> format) and by pressing the F2 key (ISTR) at just the right time during
>> the initial loading of device drivers at the start of set-up (it doesn't
>> ask you if you have a 3rd party driver to load, it just briefly flashes a
>> message saying press the key if you want to add a custom driver).
>>
>> You call that friendly? I inserted the SuSE CD and it just asked me how I
>> wanted to partition the disk and gave a recommendation.
>
> Sure, Suse *loads* fine. I never had problems with windows or suse
> installing it (except my harware actually works with windows and not
> with Suse) but there are no instructions on how to install downloaded
> software (not with my 8.2, anyway). In windows you just double click
> on it and it installs itself, or you type the address and click "run".

There are no instructions on how to use downloaded software with Windows
either - you follow the directions given with the download - and I love the
instructions for Microsoft Mice and Keyboards; you have to install the
driver software *before* plugging the devices in! How are you supposed to
start the driver software and click on the next buttons without a mouse or
keyboard plugged in?!?

>>
>> They both have their strong and weak points, but comparing apples and
>> oranges doesn't help anyone :-(
>
> It does, because I need information to base decisions on. I need to
> know wether adopting a new OS will put me backwards or forewards. As
> it happens, most of my hardware doesn't work with Linux, nor is it
> intuitive enough to learn quickly. It cost me days, money and
> aggravation to find this out the hard way. I'll now look into
> AppleMacs.
> M.K.
>

That is a shame, and I do feel sorry for you. What do you mean by "most" of
your hardware, you gave a specific example of a Windows GDI based
multi-function device, but say that SuSE loads, therefore, your
motherboard, disk controllers, CD/DVD-ROMs, keyboard, mouse, graphics card,
monitor all work, or at least come with generic drivers to allow basic
operation...

It sounds a bit like mountains and molehills...

Yes it is a shame certain devices don't work because the manufacturers don't
support Linux, and yes it is a shame that you happen to have chosen some of
these devices, you have my condolences :-( I hope that manufacturers such
as Lexmark will get their act together and either make entry level products
which are real products or if they are going to continue to make brainless
shell devices, that they start to support Linux.

<snip>

Dave