Re: Suse 10.3 and DVD::RIP

Ron Gibson wrote:
Approximately 5 years ago all the distros could do this easily. Then
Gnome began to sort of fork off and became increasingly unfriendly to
compile and install.

As we are a openSUSE group, that is what I am talking about. There is NO
unfriendlyness in running KDE with some of GNOME, GNome with some of
KDE, both or neither or any combination.

The fact that compilation has become more complex is inherent at
software. People want more, so more gets added. The fact that this might
be problematic to compile is none of my business.

With Mandriva you can also do the same. I mentioned that it's package
manager shows all files that will be installed. When you see how much
has to be installed to run one Gnome-centric app on a KDE system you
might exclaim, "Good grief. I have to install 75 MB of stuff to run a 2
MB application ???".

With the prices of HD space now, this is hardly an issue. You are going
to make DVDs. That means several GB at least. How much is a full
openSUSE instalation? If you can install everything you find and still
want a working thing, you might get to 50GB and that is about it.

The thing is that if you only install 1 program, that would need 75MB.
However the second might need nothing extra. So the more you install,
the less importand that becomes.

This is very inefficient and poor design. One question I raise is whether
that inefficiency is by accident or design. Gnome started on it's
divergence about the same time some Dead Rat started making deals with
traditional cooperate vendors.

It was about the same time it started reaining outside. And you are
wrong in the asumption that it is bad design. It might be that you would
prefer a different method, but that does not make it bad.

The result is yes it can be done but you end up with a precarious
balance with each new iteration of Gnome (and KDE but to a lesser
degree). Compounding the problem is that Gnome is a real PITA to compile
and package even when there is no KDE around at all.

So who cares if it is a PITA to compile? You do not need to compile it
if you think it is a pain. It is your choise to do so. I do not waste my
time by compiling things mysef, if somebody else already has done that.

I rather spend my time on something that the person who does the
compiling does not have time for to do. That way we both gain.

So Pat Vokerling Slackware founder and author has stated that in order
to put forth the best product he and his team can no longer devote that
much time on Gnome when they are working on a new release. So he dropped
the Gnome desktop. Now it appears what he said outright other distros
have not, while quietly taking the same approach.

No idea, but Novell spends much people on both KDE and GNOME (and other
things as well)

Backing up as I said 5 years ago this was not an issue. In the time
since then I see little that has changed with Gnome other than it
becoming such a PITA.

5 years ago the demands were different.

And what happens is there is a Suse way to attack the problem, a Mandriva
way to attack the problem and so on which creates a fragmented Linux
Community regarding how to resolve these issues and IMO that is not a
good thing.

I( am not sure I follow you here. Both take the source and compile it,
so users can install it. At least I asume others are doing that as well.

So in summary my objections to all of this are based on the principals
of the Open Software movement and as a user wanting to understand how
each Desktop works. In order for me to increase that knowledge it's
best not to mix the two so I can first study each in isolation from the
other.

Uh, I am not every user then. I do not care how my desktop works. I just
want it to work. Because of OS, I can choose which one I want. openSUSE
gives you the option to install the two larger ones by default, yet I
selected another one.

That _you_ like to have them seperately is an option _you_ selected.
That does not mean that all the rest is bad or good. It sounds as if you
are frustrated by the choice you made, because it is harder then it was
5 years ago.

One day perhaps I will learn enough so as to understand both in great
depth. I feel pretty darn good about KDE right now but Gnome has become
a black box to me over the last five years. I fact my first encounter
with these issues came when I was trying to compile an app, and it
bombed saying it needed XYZ. So I added that and then it bombed saying
yet another thing was needed and then another and another at which point
I said "Good grief. What is going on here? I never had to do this
before".

For most people this is not an issue. The standard answer here is always
'install via repo'.

Not that's been a while so I don't recall exact details. Since that time
I've had occasion to try to compile apps like DVD::RIP and started
seeing the same type failures. Well having been down that road before I
know it's gonna lead to a very frustrating experience and I give up IN
EXPECTATION of what is going to follow if I continue. So I don't bother
to chase down the exact problems anymore.

And for that reason we advise people to just install via the repo. No
pain with recompiling things and trying to solve issues and
dependencies.
<snip>

Having said all that there is certainly nothing wrong with doing it
like you do. For one Suse is your base distro. Mine is Slackware and
they are different. A task or tweak that takes me a few seconds in Slack
might take an hour for me in Suse. Likewise a task that takes you a few
minutes in Suse might take an hour in Slack.

If you can do it in slack, you will most likely be able to do the same
thing in openSUSE. It could be that the location of the file is not
where you expect it, but that is about it.

To find the file, you can use locate or pin under openSUSE.

There is no difference between /etc/fstab under openSUSE or slack, I
asume. That is just an example/

Which path you take in issues like this depends on what you cut your
linux teeth on and with what you've spent the most time with since then.

That must be balanced with what tasks you do every day and how much time
you have left over for "exploration".

Having said all of that I sure would like to see version 10.3 of
Suse/KDE. As I mentioned 10.2 give me a real hassle for some reason so
I had dropped back to 10.1. Now 10.3 appears to me to be much more
polished. I know if was gonna go the rpm route Suse would be the first
choice hands down. IMO installing Dead Rat is like becoming an Alpha
tester. It's not even close Suse is so far superior.

11.0 will be even better. Why not just download the DVD? That way you
have both KDE and GNOME

Perhaps in about 3-4 months I'll be able to free space (I am working
with anther test install so I have three Linux distros now). I expect to
have completed one project in a few months, maybe sooner. then I'll have
the space I like to have. Geez I just bought anther 160GB drive to handle
video overflow. Right now my total usable storage capacity is about
.75TB.

Then 11.0 will be out with KDE 4, most likely. And about that space,
wern't yu first moaning about 'wasting' 75MB?

I remember the day I was so overjoyed that I finally got a huge 540MB
HD for $500 :(

:-D

To sumarize: There is a different aproach, Yours is to compile stuff and
get frustrated while learning a lot. openSUSE is directed at installing
pre-compiled stuff.

If you desire to still compile, even though working pre-compiled things
are avaiable, you might be looking at the source RPMs and use them.

houghi
--
You can have my keyboard ...
if you can pry it from my dead, cold, stiff fingers
.

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