Re: Advertising "Linux Compatible"

From: Ranando King (rk_at_magictouchcorp.com)
Date: 01/03/05 

Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:29:14 -0600

"Jose Lopez" <Maheffe@jose.net> wrote in message
news:33rk5pF3tvhm3U1@individual.net...
> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:40:58 +0000, 7 wrote:
<snipped>
> Here we have the typical LINO-KOOK reply.
> Let's dissect it and have some fun!
>
> > Nope - you can buy OEM, it means you don't buy the bits you don't need.
> It still comes with a driver disk.

Ok. The OEM hardware comes with a Windows Driver. In buying the hardware
OEM, we receive this small piece of software why? Because Windows doesn't
natively support that particular piece of hardware. Therefore, in order for
the Windows user to make the best use of the hardware, they must install a
piece of 3rd software that attaches its to the kernel. That's not Windows
supporting the hardware, that's the hardware supporting Windows. If Windows
supported the hardware, then the hardware manufacturer wouldn't have to
write drivers. Microsoft would have already done that.

> > If you do that with windopes, you could be fucked because the
> > software you then install could be deemed an illegal copy
> > and/or unaudited therefore within the rights of the BSA to haul your
> > ass on over to the courts to explain.
>
> No it's not.
> You can even LEGALLY buy an OEM copy of Windows XP as long as it is
> included with a piece of *hardware*.
> Notice, nowhere does it say the *hardware* has to work.
> Totally legal.

Well.... um.... I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you're wrong again.
>From the EULA on the OEM Microsoft Windows XP HE CD that came with the DELL
PC's here at the office:
(I've snipped the irrelevant portions)

*** BEGIN QUOTE***

Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition
END-USER LICENSE AGREEMENT

IMPORTANT-READ CAREFULLY: This End-User
License Agreement ("EULA") is a legal agreement between you
(either an individual or a single legal entity) and the
manufacturer ("Manufacturer") of the computer system or
computer system component ("HARDWARE") with which you acquired
the Microsoft software product(s) identified on the
Certificate of Authenticity ("COA") affixed to the HARDWARE or
on the associated product documentation ("SOFTWARE"). The
SOFTWARE includes Microsoft computer software, and may include
associated media, printed materials, "online" or electronic
documentation, and Internet based services.
<snipped>
SOFTWARE PRODUCT LICENSE
The term "COMPUTER" as used herein shall mean the HARDWARE, if
the HARDWARE is a single computer system, or shall mean the
computer system with which the HARDWARE operates, if the
HARDWARE is a computer system component.

1. GRANT OF LICENSE. Manufacturer grants you the following
rights, provided you comply with all of the terms and
conditions of this EULA:
* Installation and Use. Except as otherwise expressly
provided in this EULA, you may install, use, access, display
and run only one (1) copy of the SOFTWARE on the COMPUTER.
<snipped>
* Software as a Component of the Computer - Transfer. THIS
LICENSE MAY NOT BE SHARED, TRANSFERRED TO OR
USED CONCURRENTLY ON DIFFERENT COMPUTERS.
The SOFTWARE is licensed with the COMPUTER as a single
integrated product and may only be used with the COMPUTER. If
the SOFTWARE is not accompanied by HARDWARE, you may not use
the SOFTWARE. You may permanently transfer all of your rights
under this EULA only as part of a permanent sale or transfer
of the COMPUTER, provided you retain no copies, if you
transfer the SOFTWARE (including all component parts, the
media, any upgrades, this EULA and the Certificate of
Authenticity), and the recipient agrees to the terms of this
EULA. If the SOFTWARE is an upgrade, any transfer must also
include all prior versions of the SOFTWARE.

*** END QUOTE ***

Given that the COA says:
"For distribution with a new DELL PC only"

the EULA basically restricts the use of the OEM version of Windows to the
hardware with which it was purchased. So if the hardware doesn't work
anymore, you're just plum out of luck. Go find an oem copy of windows and
look for yourself! The file is \i386\EULA.TXT on the CD. Read the first 5
paragraphs.

<snipped>
> Ahh but YOU were the one who said Linux supports more hardware.

Remember above? The hardware manufacturers have to provide support for
Windows. Windows doesn't natively support the hardware. Linux comes with
support for the hardware already in many cases

> Now what does asking the manufacturers have to do with anything?
> I get full support for Windows from them.

Exactly. They support Windows. Windows does not support them. It's an easy
mistake to make, but it's an important distinction where this point is
concerned.

> Why can't Linux support the hardware I listed, which is COMMON hardware.

That's why he wanted you to go ask the manufacturers. It's up to the
manufacturers to either a) release the info needed by Linux developers so
that the hardware will be supported by Linux, or b) support Linux as they do
Windows by developing drivers themselves.

> > I mean I can install all the cards and printers I like in windopes, and
> > the ones you have in your list,
> > and almost nothing will work to the extent you indirectly claim for
> > windopes in your list above.
>
> What kind of a lie is that?
> It ALL WORKS PERFECTLY UNDER WINDOWS.

??? You mean to tell me that the trouble I was having with the
non-postscript, native mode, Windows driver for the DELL Laser Printer
(Lexmark based) was perfect operation? You mean to tell me that the fact
that I have to completely uninstall any video driver from any other card,
including an ATI card, before installing a new ATI driver is perfect
operation under Windows? You mean to tell me that the constant interrupt
conflicts I used to have between my network adapter, serial ports, video
card, and sound card were examples of perfect operation under Windows? You
mean to tell me that all the examples of people having problems installing
their hardware and calling tech support or searching the net looking for
answers are examples of perfect operation? I'm flabbergasted.

> You open the box, install the hardware, slap the CD in the drive and away
> it goes.
> How do you do that with Linux?

Simple.
If the hardware is supported by Linux, you install the hardware.
....
done. There's no need to "slap the CD in the drive." The kernel comes with
the drivers already built in. When the computer powers up, it'll recognize
the hardware, load the appropriate module and "away it goes."

> I'll tell you, you go on a letter writing, begging campaign to Creative,
> begging them for Soundblaster 24 bit drivers.
>
> Maybe in 3 years you will have them, maybe.

Or, you could just use the latest ALSA drivers and have your support for
Audigy cards right there ready to go.

<snipped>

> No OS vendor can predict what kind of hardware will be released after it's
> own release.
> Well Linux, seeing as they have the distribution of the month club might
> be a little bit ahead on that one assuming of course the Linux kooks can
> either beg for drivers or reverse engineer them in time for the next
> distribution.

Or the "Linux kooks" can simply "beg for" the HPI docs and write the drivers
in short fashion upon receipt. You'll find this is the most common method
among "Linux kooks".

<snipped>
>
> > I could risk going to third
> > parties that might hoard these ancient drivers illegally and there is no
> > guarantee they haven't been infected with viruses because I don't have
> > access to source code do I ?
>
> Yawwn.
> What you are describing is a day in the life of a Linux user.
> We Windows users slap the CD in and the hardware works.
> Just don't be an *** and lose the CD like MLW seems to do.

On the one hand, Windows users have to maintain a collection of CDs that are
mostly wasted space to keep outdated copies of your hardware drivers on hand
since your hardware manufacturer could drop support at any time. It should
be common knowledge by now that by the time the average user picks up a
piece of hardware in a store, at least 1 new revision of the driver has
already been released by the manufacturer to fix some issue in the original
driver released with the hardware.

On the other hand, Linux users need only have access to the kernel source
code. That is to say, a single CD or http:\\www.kernel.org or the website
for their particular distribution.

>
> > Not with GNU/Linux - most things work fine with auto detect.
>
> No the don't.
> Stop ;ying already.
> Scanners, printers, mice, USB devices, Firewire devices, RAID controllers
> and modern day soundcards are highly problematic with Linux.
> They work fine with Windows however.
> Remember that CD you dropped on the floor?

Some of those devices are problematic. But lets be honest. Some of those
same devices are problematic on Windows as well. Neither OS is perfect here.
Your pretense that Windows drivers are flawless is laughable at best. How
about all those people with all that perfectly fine (albeit slightly dated)
hardware that they had to give up just to move on to Windows XP? That's why
many people don't upgrade... not to mention that they can't afford the cost
of a new OS.

Also consider that since Microsoft has officially dropped support for Win95
which some people are still using, eventually these people will be out in
the cold because hardware manufacturers will stop supporting them as well.
Not an issue with Linux.

> Those that
> > don't work - I have to hunt for drivers, but almost always there is one
> > out there.
>
> Really?
> Where is a VIA6410 driver that doesn't require an ancient version of Linux
> to run and a kernel recompile at that?
> Real popular on the Asus P4P800 boards.
>

Not a kernel recompile. Just a recompile of the 1 driver module.

<snipped>
> And if the manufacturers are not providing drivers, then
> > there is no reason for me to buy their crap is there when there are
> > competing vendors that do similar product?
>
> Moving the goalposts again are we?

Nope. Just making a statement of fact.

I know. You're going to want to go get one of those IBM 7332 4mm DDS Tape
Cartridge Autoloaders for your Windows 2003 Server. No? Wouldn't do that
because it doesn't support Windows? Hmm. Looks like the goalpost hasn't
moved a single micrometer.

>
> FWIW your reply is a typical of the lame Linux advocates attempt at trying
> to prove the impossible.
> The fact is, Windows support of usable, modern hardware is far above
> Linux's.

You mean "modern hardware manufacturer's support of Windows is far above
their support of Linux" don't you? Is Microsoft writing the drivers? No.

> In fact what kind of a market would a piece of X86 hardware have if it
> wasn't supported by Windows?

The same that it has right now. See above.
You're simply making the same kinds of mistakes most end users make. Just
because people say "go xerox this document" doesn't mean that they're making
the copy on a Xerox machine. If you pay closer attention to the details, you
too may learn to appreciate Linux.