Re: Query to the Linux community....Follow up...

From: Carl (cengman7_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 01/04/05 

Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 14:11:51 -0600

Initial disclaimer....

I want to thank most of the users on this newsgroup that took the time to
respond to me one more time. To those that were capable of a genuine
conversation...you're the type of people that make newsgroups fun and a
great way to learn and share opinions.

There are (unfortunately) others that feel that because they have opinions
they have the right to belittle others while at the same time impressing the
$%^^ out of themselves by hearing themselves talk (yes, they probably mouth
the words while they write). I confess I grew tired of such rambling, and
the following is the response.

To the first group of people (the helpful ones), I ask you not to read the
rest of this message. Thanks (one more time)...I'm off to find the answers
I seek elsewhere.

>>
>> Several people took issue with the idea that too many choices was a
>> problem for some users. There were analogies to cars and PC hardware.
>
> Yes, people deal with choice every day. And why would they understand PC
> hardware but not PC software? Silly, stupid and ignorant.

You know, I've tried to have an intelligent conversation on a civil basis
with people that are capable acting like adults and not condescending,
arrogant, know-it-all jerks. For the most part I was able to.
Unfortunately, you responded too.

There are a number of people that I know that have thought about Linux and
been put off by the uncertainty of so many distributions. I wasn't one of
them, but they kept asking me, and since I didn't know enough to give them
an informed decision, I didn't offer any advice. The point of coming here
and asking questions was to do research, and ask people that know, rather
than just googling and getting a variety of articles, pro or con. If I had
come with an agenda, I would have visited some of the newsgroups that have
both hate and linux in the title. There are several.

>
>> I don't
>> think that cars are a valid analogy because people are fairly comfortable
>> with the technology involved and everyone has friends that offer
>> opinions,
>> etc.
>
> Oh? Ask most people to point out where the fuel pump is. You'll be lucky
> if
> they know how to open the hood! There are MILLIONS of computers out there
> and MANY, MANY people that are VERY comfortable with computers. Perhaps
> not
> as many as cars, but to dismiss them as if they do not exist is simply,
> well, Silly, stupid and ignorant.

If you don't understand the difference in analogies, then you're vapid,
arrogant, and closed-minded.

>
>> People generally don't worry about incompatability between cars
>> either.

People don't worry in the same way that if they create a *** in Excel,
they may want someone else to be able to see it on their computer. You're
so caught up in trying to assert your perceived superiority that you're
missing the point of the conversation.

>
> Oh? so they can take parts off my Nissan and put it on someone else's
> Toyota? Here you prove my point. People understand that to get parts for
> there Toyota, they go to the Toyota dealer and ask for the part, or they
> go
> to the autoparts store and ask for a part for their Toyota, or they just
> take it in and get there car worked on by an expert, why on earth would
> this be different for a PC and OS? I got my OS from Mandrake so I get my
> software from Mandrake? I don't see the difference.
>
>> People that are not comfortable with PC technology very often are
>> reluctant to choose hardware.
>
> There are MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people out there that ARE
> comfortable,
> to dismiss them is well, Silly, stupid and ignorant. There is a whole
> market for Linux that you have to IGNORE to make your point.

There are millions (not BILLIONS...do your own google research as to the
number of computer users) that are comfortable with computers...to varying
degrees. Have you ever done tech support for any of these user? If you
knew your ass from a hole in the ground you'd know that just because people
consider themselves comfortable with the apps they know does not make them
comfortable with all aspects of the computer.

>
>> How many parents, friends, or relatives call each of
>> you asking for recommendations when buying a PC or software?
>
> Just about all of them.

And that is part of my point...if people were so comfortable just trying a
new PC or software, they wouldn't feel the need to ask around...but they do,
because they don't want to risk making a mistake. It seems the biggest
mistake is to ask you anything, because all you'll do is put them down in
order to make yourself feel superior.

>>
>> Even if I put aside the specific analogies,
>
> Why? You have not given good enough reasons to.

You must really like to hear the sound of your own voice, huh?

>> I do not discount the validity of your points.

> That is all you have been doing so far.

Nonsense. I asked a question...you and others responded...I ask some more
questions. Only you would come to the conclusion that the Socratic method
is a personal insult to your belief system.

>
>> I think among people comfortable with PCs, multiple
>> distributions of Linux may not be much of an issue.
>
> Correct, and there are MILLIONS probably in the hundreds of Millions of
> people that Linux can expand and grow into. Get it? there is a HUGE base
> of
> computer users that can be converted to Linux. In order for your point
> even
> to have a CHANCE at being valid, you have to ignore a market of MILLIONS
> and say the only people of importance are people without any computer
> skills, that is just nonsens.

I'm not ignoring them...YOU are ignoring the people that aren't comfortable
with PCs. If you want to make the assertions that the number of people that
are uncomfortable with PCs is negligable, fine. I disagree, but I certainly
wouldn't insult you for that belief. If you think it is significant, then
you are the one ignoring a potentially large number of users...apparently
because they are inconvenient to your opinions.

I was trying to look at how to remove the obsticles from the users you are
trying to ignore, dot discount the ones that are already potential Linux
users.

>> I think that it may
>> be much more of an issue with people that would be prone to buying the
>> "PCs for
>> Dummies"
>
> Pre-installed Linux would be EASIER for the average user than MS software.
> your ignorance of Linux is showing again. Let's compare adding software to
> the computer:
>
> Windows:
>
> The person asks around and gets a different opinion from everyone he asks.
> They drive of to the store and finds all the choices EXPENSIVE! They don't
> really know what to do, they would like to try a couple of different
> choices but you can't return software once it has been open... The person
> is terrified of making a mistake, NOT because of the OS, but because he is
> afraid of waisting money. Finlay, he asks the sales person, they recommend
> something. The user gets home, installs it and finds it is not at all what
> they wanted, damn, waisted money... No wonder people are terrified of
> software!
>

Interesting take, but mistaken. Let's actually take another whack at that
scenerio. A person gets a PC with a lot of software already installed.
Yes, they paid for it...but you were talking EASIER, so let's stick to that
point. If they need something else, they might go on the internet and
download something free (yes, Windows has a lot of free software too), pick
up a magazine with reviews (there are dozens), or go to work and ask almost
anyone their opinion. If, after that they need to buy some software then
fine. They can also go to a computer store, Best Buy, etc. and ask someone
in the computer department. Granted, they might not get the best advice on
which software to get from a store, but they m ost likely will get some
advice. The point is that there are a lot of places to get the information
they want (both good and bad).

If your assertion is that Linux is the only platform with free software,
you're blowing smoke up your own oriface.

> Linux (Mandrake)
>
> The person asks around, finds a Mandrake user. The Linux user says "there
> are many choices that come with Mandrake. Just use the software installer
> in Mandrake Control Center and install one, two or three and try them out.
> The ones you don't like, Uninstall them and keep the one you like". The
> user, no longer gambling with his hard earned money, the user relaxes and
> simply tries a few choices... The user is comfortable with the idea that
> they get Mandrake software from Mandrake in the same way they get Nissan
> parts from the Nissan dealer.

Real world (for a non Linux user)...a user asks about Linux from the
relatively few people they currently know that use Linux. I took an
informal poll at work today...three Linux users...each one uses a different
distribution. Each one says they've had little or no problems with their
distribution. I'm told that there are hundreds of distributions. Which one
does a user pick if they don't know any better? A user might ask WHY there
are so many distributions and assume that some have more in them than others
and they don't want want to pick one that is missing something. I don't
know if you remember the old word processing wars (back when there was real
competition among word processors). Each company jumped through hoops to
add all sorts of features so they could advertise a feature table showing
their competitors didn't have a feature that almost no one used anyway. It
became a joke...but people would buy a word processor because they saw one
had a feature the other didn't...even if they would never use the feature.

The user is NOT comfortable getting Mandrake the same way they get Nissan
parts becaue they might never even have heard of Mandrake. Believe it or
not...most non-Linux people don;t keep up on Linux. They *might* have heard
of Red Hat

Before you start...please don't bother with your condescension here. Most
Windows users so far don't give a rat's behind about Linux yet...and I'm
trying to explore what it will take take to get them to care. If they
contact people like you with questions they'll certainly avoid it like the
plague. Note, I'm STILL NOT saying a single thing against Linux.

After all that...you still haven't shown that Linux is easier at anything.
It may very well be, but your saying so doesn't make it true.

>
> Get it? The fear comes from WAISTING MONEY and Linux eliminates that fear.

You really have no clue about dealing with non-technical users, do you?

<snip>

>> or the OS...they just want to turn on
>> their PC and run the app.
>
> Yes, and that is EASIER with Linux than windows. Let's say they want to
> install a photo editor. With Windows, its a drive to the store, pay out
> cash without being able to try out the software (knowing that if you don't
> like it you will not be able to get your money back), drive home, install
> and find out you don't like what you bought.

Garbage. You can get most software online these days. No driving. Most
have demo versions so a user can try the full software for some period
without paying for it. You continue to set up straw men arguments so you
can knock them down.

>
> Linux (Mandrake)
>
> Open software installer, search the packages for photo, see a list, but
> hey,
> all I have to do is take my time look though the list for one that sounds
> like what I want, select it, install it, and try it. It's not like they
> are
> loosing money on it. They would not have to search far before they reach
> the Gimp. If they installed it and did not like it, SO WHAT, they are not
> losing money on the deal.
>
>> I heard a guy at a store the other day that
>> thought MS Office was the Operating system.
>
> So?

The point was that there are a lot of people that use a computer on a daily
level with THAT level of understanding. I'm sure that pleases you a great
deal because it provides you with so many people to belittle.

>
>> My comments about being "forced" (a bad choice of words)
>
> They were not the only bad choice of words, still, it pointed out your
> ignorance.

And your comments point out your rude, boorish, arrogant, intolerant
attitude towards anyone that even questions your world view. I'd suggest
you do a google search on the word "Manners."

>
>> to give away
>> their software were based on the perception that many people seem to
>> have.
>
> And that perception is based on your ignorance, why should we limit choice
> because of YOUR ignorance?

I have never, ever suggested limiting anything based on what I know. Geez,
get a clue, will you? The attitude of some users that I'm trying to convey
is real...I hear it all the time. If you'd read some of the postings from
others in this thread you'd know that I'm not alone in this perception.
Wait...don't bother...you never seem to listen to anyone other than yourself
anyway.

>
>>
>> Are there restrictions on how you distribute software if you use gcc?
>
> Not for just using gcc, but there are other compilers that can be used.

Finally, the very first civil sentence you've written!

>
>> How good is gcc?
>
> I like it and I bet a good deal of the code that runs the world's fastest
> computers was compiled with it.

The fact that you like it was sufficient. I had heard that there were some
issues with compiling code and linking with certain versions of some
libraries (the dynamically linked ones? I don't recall the specifics)
...which is where my comments about releasing apps written for the platform
came from. That's why I was asking.

>
>> How many other good c++ compilers are available?
>
> Ever hear of google? Try a search for "c++ compiler Linux" First on the
> list
> is Intel.
>
>> What c++ app frameworks are available and popular? (wxWidgets?)
>> Are the IDEs any good (I know that's very subjective)? VI and EMACS are
>> not acceptable.
>
> Can't you do even the slightest research for yourself?

Here we go again...I could find a list of which ones are available, I was
asking a group of knowledgable people which were the GOOD and/or POPULAR
ones. Unfortunately, you replied instead. Perhaps you simply read a press
release and take it for face value, I'd rather ask the people that use the
stuff on a daily basis. Why are you so hostile over someone trying to do a
little research? If you don't like the questions...don't answer them. If
you just want to complain, don't waste either of our time.

>>
>> It was suggested to me that it's the fault of us clueless, ignorant
>> people
>> that there are these misconceptions about Linux.
>
> I always blame the ignorant for their own ignorance, are you trying to
> blame
> ME for your inability to find the truth on your own?

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. I did not come here to advocate
any position. I've never once pushed a Windows agenda...I'm trying to find
out the answers and you sit there and complain that I don't know the answers
and also complain that I'm asking questions to find out the answers. You
had a difficult upbringing, didn't you?

>> I would simply say that
>> if the intent is to get more people to use Linux, then it is not the
>> problem of the ignorant...it is a problem for those that want Linux to
>> grow and thrive
>> to find a way to overcome these misconceptions.
>
> Yes, that is why I have pointed our YOUR ignorance time and time again. It
> seems you are not even willing to do the slightest research on your own.

And again...you shoot off your mouth with nothing usefull to say.

>
>> If you leave people not
>> knowing any better, they will stay with Microsoft.
>
> People that are too lazy and stupid to do a little research can stay with
> MS
> for all I care.

Given thet my query wasn't to you specifically, I couldn't care less what
you care care about. In case you didn't notice, I was trying to find ways
to learn about Linux and then perhaps find out how to make it more popular.

>
> And I agree with you whole heartedly.
>
>>
>> My comments about software and business models....
>>
>> Oracle doesn't count. A database is not an application.
>
> It's not an application? Then what the *** is it, a big balloon in the
> sky?
> Oracle DOES count. Oracle is a database APPLICATION that runs on Linux as
> is making Oracle MONEY. The EXACT business model you are asking about.

A database is a tool that gets integrated into an application. It's not an
application by itself. That's like saying a file system is an
application!!! Geez. Oracle...without scripts or programs...is largely
useless by itself.

>
>> *Of course* there >> are a lot of "Bread-and butter" types of apps, etc.:
>> word processors,
>> email clients, news readers, WinAmp clones (no offense, I just don't know
>> their>> names) etc. What about apps that (for instance):
>>
>> Run a day care business?
>> Run a veterenary office?
>> Run a DVD rental store?
>> Run a karate Dojo, including sales of equipment, tournament
>> scheduling,
>> etc?
>
> Quicken under wine. Many people do.
>
> Or:
>
> http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=accounting+business&section=projects&Go.x=12&Go.y=10
>
>
>> Get real-time quotes and history for professional commodity traders?
>
>
> http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=stock+quote&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0
>
> Have fun.
>
>>
>> These are examples of the types of apps I was wondering about. There may
>> be be thousands of these.
>
> And many are addressed. However, they do not represent the total market
> available for Linux, there is a vast market where the "bread and butter"
> applications are all that is needed. Again, you brush that aside.

I don't brush it aside...I'm saying that for a large number of users word
processors, email apps, etc aren't enough. You just can't see beyond your
own narrow little world, can you? I have never said that Linux isn't fine
for a lot of users...I'm trying to look at what ot would take to help the
Linux market grow. Why can't you get past your arrogance and listen to me,
rather than superimposing what you *think* I'm saying?

>
>> Is there a real business opportunity in writing them
>> or are they available free?
>
> BOTH. Oracle is doing it, IBM is using Linux to sell hardware. The last I
> heard, IBM is crediting Linux with turning around the Mainframe market.

Again...(and again...) I'm looking for examples of successful commercial
applications. Not databases, distributions, scripting languages, etc. Has
anyone made any money other than distributions, IBM, Sun, or Oracle?

>
>> I've heard the argument that people will pay
>> more for a program of value over a free one, but that goes against the
>> arguments of all of the companies that sued MS because the free versions
>> of their apps were perceived to be killing other vendor's businesses (and
>> I doubt many people would argue the MS product was better).
>
> Geez, ignorant of the whole industry? Ever hear of the MS Anti-trust case?

That was exactly my point!!! Reread what I wrote and see if you can get
your brain around what I was tryinig to say, will you? They needed to sue
MS because the free stuff MS was putting into the OS was hurting the sales
of superior products that weren't free! DUH!!!

>> As to my business model inquiry, I found it interesting that the people
>> that are making money are some of the Linux distributors, IBM, Sun, and
>> Oracle. Much of that seems to be through consulting, and although I have
>> been a consultant in the past, I didn't care for it and that's not a
>> business model
>> I wish to pursue.
>
> Then DON"T. Why the *** should Linux pander to YOUR likes?

I never asked it to. Once again you're apparently incapable of
distinguishing a few simple questions with an attack on your belief system.
Poor you...must be lonely in there.

> However, If you don't ignorantly dismiss application developers such as
> Oracle that develop
> server APPLICATIONS, the business model of developing applications for
> Linux is alive and well.

I don't dismiss Oracle as a vehicle for developing applications at all. I
simply state that it is not an application by iteself. If I bought Oracle
by itself and didn't write or buy code for it...by itself it's useless. I
know there is a business model for writing server applications that use
Oracle...that was never in question. My primary area of interest is desktop
Linux.

>> No one (that I recall) gave me an example of a company
>> writing a successful commercial app.
>
> What the *** do you think ORACLE is? It is a big commercial application.

Let's just disagree on this, OK?

>
>> There may very well be some, but they
>> *appear* to be few and far between. Is it simply because Linux hasn't
>> hit
>> a certain "critical mass" yet?
>
> Linux has hit critical mass, That is why cities and businesses around the
> world are switching to Linux and saving MILLIONS.

Again, I was talking about Linux on the desktop. Even the most optimistic
articles on Linux don't make the claim that Linux has hit critical mass on
the desktop.

> Come back when you have learned something.

Clearly there's nothing to be learned from you other than obnoxious behavior
and close-minded arrogance.

Don't worry..I won't return to this newsgroup.

>