Re: I just want to browse my network!

On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 02:54:09 -0400, "jim" <jim@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

I am now trying Ubuntu 8.04 and I'll just be damned if the simple stuff
isn't still hard in Linux!!

It's not necessarily hard. It's just different. It's "hard" becuase we
have been used to doing things a
certain way for years, and learning a new way to do it seems daunting.

What seems daunting is having to do 10 times the work and still not get the
results you are after. What's daunting is having to figure out just how
your OS works and put the damn thing together (with missing parts scattered
about the internet and no "parts list" to tell you where they are).

This kind of issues were around still when I started using Linux. Good thing
it didn't stop me. With modern day distros there may be some issues, but they
are rare and comparable issues exist in other systems too. Even back then
after spending some time setting things up I found I had now better system
that I had with windows. Most things nowdays, when it comes to setting up the
system are easyer than in most OS's (specially in Windows), believe me...

Do you really have as big problems as this lets me understand or is it just
the networking? Even from command line only it's not hellish and if no other
issues then you should just go for it, set it up once and have it working
after that. No need to browse notwork shares whan you have set them up for
simply monuting (automatically at boot or by command line with one line after
the boot). I believe that should be enogh unless you keep changing your shares
and computer names & IP's...

If yau have other issues too please list them and let' see if the solution is
simpler than you have thought... It might be only because the system is
different, not harder, that yau have these problems.

Nowdays when installing software, most stuff is available in reposities,
telling linux to install, for example, firefox will nowdays also check if your
system is missing libraries that it needs and install them autamtically too.
No missing parts scattered around - actually that is a problem that no OS has
fully solved but today it's actually more common on windows than in linux.
Trust me on this.

The easy network accessibility you mention in Windows is one of it's huge
security holes.

I hear this a lot. But, I have NEVER gotten a virus. NEVER been hacked.
NEVER had to worry abotu security because the free solutions like Zone Alarm
ARE easy to install and configure. They come with everything. They just
work.

Good. Most common users dont know anything about firewalls or antivirus
softwares (only that there is such and that maybe they got one pre-installed).
With windows you have had to learn about these, where to get one, mhich one to
use and how to configure it. Just like with windows, not having everything set
up automatically is not an issue that you cant overcome. Clearly yau can. In
linux most distros set up the basic iptables rules for simple firewall
automatically but there may be some other thing that does not work out of the
box.

That was not an issue for you in Windows, it wont be in Linux either if you
dont want it to be :)


I finally sat down today, and spent it getting Ubuntu up and running, with
Xnews working. Xnews is
important enough to me that I won't run anything it won't run on. I had it
running in Wine before, but
buggy as hell. Well, it just took some searching and experimentation and I
have it running (almost)
perfectly. There's just one graphical glitch left which is just a minor
bother.

Spent the day to get an OS up and running? Wow. XP takes just over an hour
(with updates - but without antivirus, and other apps you'll need).

Getting it "up and running" does not take a day - it takes less than win XP (I
have tried). Getting the software you need installed and set up may take up
from 10 minutes to weeks on ANY OS - it depends on what you need. I had my new
computer set up with most plain debian basic install + hand installing (via
apt-get) and configuring X-windows, apache+php+perl+mysql, browsers for text
and graphics modes, Ion and fluxbox windows managers and two monitors + some
additional software took me a day. Note that to install minimal setup for
saving space I intentionally took a longer route by starting with most minimas
installation and could have saved time by selecting automatically both server
and desktop installation options when installing the OS.

I know from experience that this cant be done as fast nor without more work
(searching and dowloading softare from www for example) in windows 2000 or XP.

Spending a day to get OS set up, running and having the tools that you need -
ti depends on what you need, but a day is not much. If I had chosen the
easyest install I would have had desktop environment and the servers installed
in the time (or less) than it takes to set up plain Windows with only the
software that comes on the installation CD (which is not much).

Getting around the Linux file system is a major pain for a long time
Windows user to learn, and being
denied the ability to do what I wish with my files is annoying. All that
took was getting used to opening up a
terminal and typing 'sudo nautilus'. I grew up on CP/M, so I can learn
this stuff. Windows makes you lazy.

Lazy? Some would say that riding in a car instead of biking 10 miles to
work is lazy. I'd call it efficient.

Actually in many different ways windows is not efficient. It's easy te learn,
easy to use for basic stuff but for anything more it certainly is not
efficient. Often the most efficient systems take some time to learn at first
but after that are more efficiet to use.

OS X of apple is a prime example of providing both - the underlying unix
system provides the "hard" to learn, efficient to use power of unix and alike
systems and the easy to use environment provides even esyer to learn
environmont than windows but not as efficient to use than the harder to learn
ways.
Linux has had the powerful unix-like usability from the start and today it's
also getting closer and closer to OS X in having more and more thing "just
working" and getting easyer and easyer for end users to set up anything.

All systems have some weaknesses. Lets say that windows does not have the
efficiency of fully powered unix systems but it has quite easy to learn
environment. Linux may still lack on the later part on some places but the
amount of such is getting smaller and smaller specially on systems like Ubuntu
that are specially made for regular people who want things "just to work"

Windows let's people (of all skill levels) just get work done. I've been
fighting with this Linux *** for a week and still haven't seen a single XP
PC through any of the distros I have tried.

There are many opinions on this. I would have painful time with some things I
do if I had to do them mith windows - of course installing cygwin would lessen
this but still it would be painful.

I started to use Linux in 2002 - bought a new computer, intalled Red Hat 7.1
and planneh to install Win2k later (dual boot) - after a week of fiddling with
it I have never wanted to have windows installed on anything else than running
under VWWare or similiar system and I use it only for cross-development and
even in that mostly for testing.

There are things that are a real pain to do in Windows when compared to *nix
systems. So Windows, just like none of operating systems today, cant be said
to let people (all of them) to just get work done.

Btw, are you sure that you have allowed linux to have TCP&UDP ports needed for
windows/samba filesharing to work opened for incoming connections from trusted
home network? Just like with Windows, you need that in linux too naturally...
Ubuntu for example comes with really easy pragram to set up linux kernels
internas netfilter system (for firewalling and other things) called
FireStarter...

Other systems may come with just iptables (which is set up with script
usually) or some other more rare tools with easy graphical or text based
environment to set it up. If you want it easy then FireStarter is really easy
one (although it has some things that I dont accept, like the fact that you
cant open a port just for TCP or UDP but always for both - but I dubt it's a
big issue inside trusted network).

I bet if you take the time, you'll find using Ubuntu just as easy, if not
more so.

Time is one thing I do not have to waste.

You have wasted already way mare time than you would have needed by installing
and trying different distros. From what I understand I would recommend you to
go with ubuntu, spend a little time to learn how it works or needs to be set
up and I will guarantee that in the end you will save the time used for that
when afterwards using your then-working linux system instead of windows. I
know many people wo I have had hard time to convince them to believe this but
who have later told me that they have been most satisfyed. Only one switched
back and even in that case the reason was not that Linux did not do everything
he wanted as easy as he wanted - it's a silly case and silly person, but I
wont go deeper into that.

Sure, still today there are issues mhy linux is not the solution for everyones
needs but so far I have not heard any issue fram you that I would see as too
large obstacle. The solutions for your network problem are certainly not too
time taking to learn and set-up once (and if needed to set up later on second
system, well then yau already know how to do it and doing is not a large job).

It works out of the box or it doesn't.

And I'm only one of BILLIONS of people that feel that way.

If Linux slows businesses down as much as it has slowed me down, there's no
way in hell linux will ever take the desktop.

If eventually you come to conclusion that it's not yet good enough for you
that does not implicate that it wont be. Having seen the development in past 7
years any such issues remaining wont take long to dissapear totally.

jim

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