Re: Universal sound card?

Aragorn wrote:
mike wrote:

Aragorn wrote:
Either way, the bottom line is this: if a particular piece of hardware
does not work in your particular GNU/Linux distribution, then you've
bought the wrong hardware.
Yep, all my fault that linux won't work with my hardware.

Indeed so, because you bought hardware without checking whether it's
supported by the intended operating system.

If you're running windows, this is usually not a concern.

All standardized hardware is supported by the vanilla
Linux kernel out of the box, and many proprietary hardware devices have
proprietary drivers that are freely downloadable at no fee from their
manufacturer's website, so if you own _any_ hardware that's not supported
at all, then this is not standardized hardware, period.

Just because your hardware is supported in any release of Windows - with
a little help from an equally proprietary hardware driver from the
pertaining device's vendor - while this device does not have support for
GNU/Linux, doesn't mean that your hardware is standard. It simply means
that you've fallen for the consumerist propaganda and bought something
that was Designed For Windows XP/Vista (TM), and then I'm willing to bet
that there was a shiny sticker with that slogan on either the device or
its shrinkwrapped box as well.
Another way of looking at is that I can open up the box, plug in the
hardware, click "install" and be done with it.

Really? Aren't we forgetting all those driver disks or the drivers that you
need to download separately?

Nope, that's what the term "click" is all about. It comes with the cd in the box. Stick it in the drive and click the box. Done!

I don't have to hope that some high-school kid has cobbled together a
driver that accesses a subset of the features.

Those highschool kids are actually qualified engineers, and those drivers
that access a subset of the features are actually complete drivers,
developed with the help of the hardware vendors who *do* support GNU/Linux.

I think you're optimistic. Yes, the commercial drivers are.
But there's lots of stuff that's not supported by commercial linux vendors and is done as a college project or by some smart high-schooler
or not at all. I have a touchpad mouse that works exactly the way I like it. I'm not running ANY os that doesn't support all its functions.
It ain't never gonna be supported fully by linux or vista for that matter.

I would hardly call IBM, Adaptec, Silicon Graphics (SGI), Sun Microsystems,
3Com, Realtek, AMD, Intel, Hewlett Packard, Novell, Dell, LSI, QLogic et
all highschool kids, but of course, your mileage may vary. For all we
know, you could of course be this supergenius software developer to whom
all of the aforementioned must bow humbly. (Although I somehow doubt that
this would be the case...)

I don't have to edit magic values into a magic text file that may or may
not be located in one or more "(non)standard" directory locations.

No, you are absolutely correct. Plain text files are *so* much harder to
understand than the cryptic Windows Registry. Right...

Exactly! I don't have to understand the registry. I just click the
box. The vendor understood the registry. I can count on one had
the times I had to edit the registry to make hardware install.

Sorry for the rant, but you were either asking for it or in desperate
need of enlightenment. I can only hope that reading all of the above has
made you grow a few extra neurons. If it didn't, then by all means go
back to using Windows - well, you *are* using Windows right now anyway -
but then please don't nag about an operating system that will always be
vastly superior to anything released from that particular company in
Redmond, Washington and that even in its most expensive commercial
iterations will also always be vastly more affordable than any version of
Windows as well,
I bought XP in the store for $10 and at a garage sale for $5.

What is it about "in the store" that makes you accuse me of illegal
software??? If you think Windows can't be legally obtained for less
money than it costs for headache medicine you'll need when you first
attempt linux, you're mistaken.

In other words, you're using *illegal* software. The EULA for Microsoft
products does not permit resale of their commercial products,

Acuse first, get the facts later.

since you
never even get to own the software in the firstplace even as the first

All you get to buy is a license to use the software, and it may only be used
on one or possibly two computers - both in your possession, and not
switched on simultaneously - and may not be resold, not privately, nor

$5 won't buy you enough food to stay alive while you're pulling
your hair out trying to get hardware working in linux.

I think someone who uses illegal software is not well-placed to lecture me
on the prices of food versus getting hardware to work with GNU/Linux.

Somebody who can't understand, "I bought XP in the store for $10"
shouldn't be making accusations about illegal software.

And by the way, all *my* hardware works *flawlessly* with GNU/Linux. But
then again, I don't buy "designed for Windows only" hardware.

Your choice. I prefer to get free hardware at garage sales.
Point is that I don't have to care whether it works with linux if I use Windows.

not to mention that Windows requires third-party software in order to be
usable for anything other than sending an e-mail and surfing the web, or
perhaps even more importantly, that it needs third-party software just to
protect it from its own security leaks.

Ever heard of windows freeware?

92% of all e-mail traffic on the internet is pure and unadulterated spam,
and at the same time about 85% of all Windows machines on the planet are
part of at least one of the many botnets from which the bulk of that spam
is being sent on a daily basis. Chances are that some of the spam
reaching my "Trash" maildir was sent from your computer. And *you're*
Exaggerate much?

No, but I gather information much, and I retain it. The above figures have
been published only recently. About two years ago, the total percentage of
spam among all e-mail traffic was still down to 70%, which is still quite a
85% of statistics can be made to support anything you want...50% of the time. Stole that line from a currently-running TV commercial.

Are we developing neurons yet, Grasshopper? <evil grin>
Tell me again the linux market share in the consumer sector?

That's rather a moot point, since 95% of all consumergrade computers with
an /x86/ processor are sold *with* Windows pre-installed, and it's damn
hard to even get one of those *without* the Windows license.

And you expect this to change?

If however you take a look at all other computers, then GNU/Linux is the
most prevalent operating system, even if only because it supports just
about every processor out on the market. I don't see any clusters,
mainframes or supercomputers running Windows. Do you?

Lemme think about that. You're saying that, among non-windows systems,
Linux is the most prevalent? Duh!

Linux hardware/software is not yet a chicken-egg problem.
It's still in the horny rooster stage.
Don't think that rooster is gonna be gettin' any soon.

Somebody needs to wake you up from your dream. GNU/Linux supports more
hardware out of the box than Windows does.

You are absolutely inexperienced if you think this.

I'm all for open source.
I'd like to ditch MS.
I've tried to ditch MS many times.
Just won't do what I need done.

Then you're trying to ditch it for the wrong reasons.

You don't get to choose my reasons.

Think about what happened with electric cars. Electric cars
ain't gonna happen because the gap from gas to electric is too big.
The solution was the hybrid. Takes longer, but evolves along
with the necessary infrastructure to make the transition to electric
Linux has the same problem. You need to transition from windows users
running windows hardware using the windows metaphor. Otherwise, it ain't happenin'. Grandma ain't never gonna edit /usr/lib/onandonandon.

GNU/Linux is not a
substitute for Windows, it's a substitute for proprietary UNIX - think
Solaris, SCO Unix(ware), IRIX, AIX, et al - and a very good one at that
Can't disagree. Just not interested.

Buying linux compliant hardware is not an option.

Really? And why not?
Because it costs money and I already have two lifetimes supply of hardware that works fine in windows...jury is still out on Vista.

Those components would not be more expensive than the
ones for Windows. On the contrary even. You only just have to keep your
eyes open and step back from the glamorous salestalk.

Pop into Circuit City and ask for the linux-compatible hardware aisle.
Let me know how it works out.

Advertising is intended to get you hooked, it's not intended to tell you the
truth. What good would that do them?

But you have prodded me to swap in the linux drive and play
with it some more.

Good! That's how you'll learn, by using it. It's actually all about logic.

Ok, here's what happened.
Only disk I hadn't written over was Fedora Core 4. Plugged it in.
Let's play an mp3.
plugged in a flash drive with some mp3's on it. To my surprise,
linux mounted and opened the flash drive.
Draggged an mp3 to the music player.
"Can't play this media type..but you can download a player that can.
Click here. Boy, that's' cool. Clicked it. Lan worked, firefox worked
and took me to the download page. Link for red hat. Clicked and install
started. This is way cool...
Then it happened..."you're missing some dependency, click to cancel".
I fiddled around with the package manager to no avail. Guess no mp3 for me. Sure, one could figger it out...but why?

So, I installed Knoppix 5.1. I've played mp3's in XMMS before.
Plugged in the flash drive. Icon appeared, but not mounted.
Can't mount...bunch of stuff...bad magic number...

Like I said before...different versions understand different hardware.
If you can't connect to the internet, write a letter, play music, outa the box, it's easy to get discouraged and punt the whole thing.
If you can't transfer your skills/experience with one linux variant
to another variant, you'll get discouraged.
Whoever is making these distributions is outa touch with non-geek
consumers. We don't need six ways to edit a picture and five different
media players. We need ONE of each that works outa the box.

To be fair, there are instances where I download windows freeware
that requires installing dotnet which requires installing a new installer
to install the installer that installs dotnet that is required by
the intitial install.
My solution to this problem is the same as with linux...the delete key.

Windows is much like American democracy. It sucks...just sucks less than
the alternatives. And it's already installed.

So, how are we doin', rooster?

I'm doing just fine, thank you. I was already using GNU/Linux exclusively
before I even had an internet connection at home, and even before I started
using GNU/Linux, I had only been using Windows 3.0 for about 6 months, and
NT 4.0 for about two years, with over 5 years of OS/2 in between.

Yeah, yeah. I was writing product proposals (for unix-based engineering
workstations) with vi and nroff back in the days when you had to walk
two buildings over to get the printout
to see if your formatting was correct.
That don't make me smart...just old.

See, I already knew of the existence of other operating systems than what
usually came with a computer before I bought my very first one. That was
in the days of MS-DOS 5.0, and I have always felt that it was up to the
customer to decide what operating system they wanted to use, not up to the
hardware vendor.

By the way, there is a long and dirty story behind the reason why most
consumergrade PC manufacturers sell Windows-only PCs - a trend that's now
slowly starting to wear off, thankfully - but I'll save that for another
day. Has to do with the fine print of Windows endorsement deals and all. Mob tactics etc. Nasty stuff. :-/

Not long at all. Monopoly and big money gets you what you want. Always
has, always will. The only way to gain significant share on MS is for
some entity with VERY deep pockets and an internal demand for zillions
of units to take 'em on. The EU comes to mind. They're already plenty
pissed with MS.
Maybe China.
And if it happens, it won't be free either.
Six college dropouts with yet another linux variant ain't gonna make it

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