Re: Universal sound card?

mike wrote:

Aragorn wrote:

mike wrote:

Aragorn wrote:

Either way, the bottom line is this: if a particular piece of hardware
does not work in your particular GNU/Linux distribution, then you've
bought the wrong hardware.

Yep, all my fault that linux won't work with my hardware.

Indeed so, because you bought hardware without checking whether it's
supported by the intended operating system.

If you're running windows, this is usually not a concern.

If you intend to run anything else, then you owe it to yourself to at least
check.

Just because your hardware is supported in any release of Windows -
with a little help from an equally proprietary hardware driver from the
pertaining device's vendor - while this device does not have support
for GNU/Linux, doesn't mean that your hardware is standard. It simply
means that you've fallen for the consumerist propaganda and bought
something that was Designed For Windows XP/Vista (TM), and then I'm
willing to bet that there was a shiny sticker with that slogan on
either the device or its shrinkwrapped box as well.

Well... Another way of looking at is that I can open up the box, plug in
the hardware, click "install" and be done with it.

Really? Aren't we forgetting all those driver disks or the drivers that
you need to download separately?

Nope, that's what the term "click" is all about. It comes with the cd
in the box. Stick it in the drive and click the box. Done!

I've had to reinstall Windows a couple of times on computers of other
people, and I can tell you that it was not quite that simple. On many
occasions, I didn't even get Windows to recognize the hardware, even if
that hardware was already popular before the pertaining version of Windows
was released.

I don't have to hope that some high-school kid has cobbled together a
driver that accesses a subset of the features.

Those highschool kids are actually qualified engineers, and those drivers
that access a subset of the features are actually complete drivers,
developed with the help of the hardware vendors who *do* support
GNU/Linux.

I think you're optimistic. Yes, the commercial drivers are.

You're talking of video drivers and WiFi drivers. You're obviously missing
the fact that everything else in your computer requires drivers as well,
and that the SCSI drivers from Adaptec, LSI, QLogic et al are all part of
the Linux kernel, while Windows requires separate driver disks for those.

But there's lots of stuff that's not supported by commercial linux
vendors and is done as a college project or by some smart high-schooler
or not at all.

No, that would be the case for the freeware on Windows that you are talking
of further down in your reply. Plus that freeware is not the same thing as
Free Software. Freeware is proprietary software and is offered for free -
as in "free beer" - but without granting you the right to redistribute,
copy or modify the software.

I have a touchpad mouse that works exactly the way I like it. I'm not
running ANY os that doesn't support all its functions. It ain't never
gonna be supported fully by linux or vista for that matter.

Then that is an error on the part of the manufacturer.

I don't have to edit magic values into a magic text file that may or may
not be located in one or more "(non)standard" directory locations.

No, you are absolutely correct. Plain text files are *so* much harder to
understand than the cryptic Windows Registry. Right...

Exactly! I don't have to understand the registry. I just click the
box.

That may work for a lot of things, but certainly not for all purposes.

The vendor understood the registry.

According to Microsoft, vendors do *not* understand the Registry, because
although it is already an ugly mess to begin with, Microsoft claims most
vendors use the Registry incorrectly.

I bought XP in the store for $10 and at a garage sale for $5.

What is it about "in the store" that makes you accuse me of illegal
software???

10 US Dollars would be about 8% of what an OEM license for Windows costs
over here in Europe, and I'd be thoroughly surprised if there really were
such a huge difference in price in the different markets.

Furthermore, my comments about the resale of Microsoft products stills
stands with regard to your garage sale purchase.

If you think Windows can't be legally obtained for less money than it
costs for headache medicine you'll need when you first attempt linux,
you're mistaken.

My very first attempt at installing GNU/Linux dates from way back when there
wasn't even such a thing as a GUI installer, and as I didn't have any
internet connection yet back then, there was also no such thing as Usenet.
Yet I didn't have a single problem.

Windows on the other hands has given me loads of headaches, even if my
confrontations with it are limited to seeing it or using it on other
people's computers.

In other words, you're using *illegal* software. The EULA for Microsoft
products does not permit resale of their commercial products,

Acuse first, get the facts later.

Given your obviously delusional ideas regarding what GNU/Linux is and how
well it performs, I can afford a minor slip-up.

And by the way, all *my* hardware works *flawlessly* with GNU/Linux. But
then again, I don't buy "designed for Windows only" hardware.

Your choice. I prefer to get free hardware at garage sales.
Point is that I don't have to care whether it works with linux if I use
Windows.

No, the point is that if you don't care about whether it works with
GNU/Linux, then you also have no right to complain if it doesn't.

not to mention that Windows requires third-party software in order to
be usable for anything other than sending an e-mail and surfing the
web, or perhaps even more importantly, that it needs third-party
software just to protect it from its own security leaks.

Ever heard of windows freeware?

Yep... It's the kind of freebie giveaway software developed by highschool
students. Later on, when those students get a little bit older and start
thinking about money, they then start releasing shareware, and at an even
later stage, they turn into commercial software makers.

Even then still, freeware is not part of Windows. It needs to be
(downloaded and) installed separately.

92% of all e-mail traffic on the internet is pure and unadulterated
spam, and at the same time about 85% of all Windows machines on the
planet are part of at least one of the many botnets from which the bulk
of that spam is being sent on a daily basis. Chances are that some of
the spam reaching my "Trash" maildir was sent from your computer. And
*you're* complaining?

Exaggerate much?

No, but I gather information much, and I retain it. The above figures
have been published only recently. About two years ago, the total
percentage of spam among all e-mail traffic was still down to 70%, which
is still quite a lot.

85% of statistics can be made to support anything you want...50% of the
time. Stole that line from a currently-running TV commercial.

Commercials are intentionally misleading. They are simple economic
propaganda, so if you buy into that, then you're even more naive than I am,
and that says a lot, coming from me.

Statistics are usually abused only by those who have a reason to abuse them,
such as politicians and commercial entities.

Tell me again the linux market share in the consumer sector?

That's rather a moot point, since 95% of all consumergrade computers with
an /x86/ processor are sold *with* Windows pre-installed, and it's damn
hard to even get one of those *without* the Windows license.

And you expect this to change?

It *is* changing, even if it's a slow process, mainly because more and more
vendors are starting to discover the qualities of GNU/Linux, and because
more and more antitrust cases are being filed against Microsoft.

And in addition, there is also Apple that's gaining market share, and also
the fact that Microsoft have seriously shot themselves in the foot with
Vista.

If however you take a look at all other computers, then GNU/Linux is the
most prevalent operating system, even if only because it supports just
about every processor out on the market. I don't see any clusters,
mainframes or supercomputers running Windows. Do you?

Lemme think about that. You're saying that, among non-windows systems,
Linux is the most prevalent? Duh!

I didn't say "non-Windows machines". I am talking of all the /non-x86/
machines. Windows supports maybe one or two other processors beside /x86,/
while the list of Linux-supported processors is almost endless. See for
yourself...

http://www.kernel.org

.... for a list of supported platforms in the Linux kernel, and...

http://www.gnu.org

.... for a list of supported platforms in the GNU Compiler Collective (gcc).

Linux hardware/software is not yet a chicken-egg problem.
It's still in the horny rooster stage.
Don't think that rooster is gonna be gettin' any soon.

Somebody needs to wake you up from your dream. GNU/Linux supports more
hardware out of the box than Windows does.

You are absolutely inexperienced if you think this.

Look who's talking! Perhaps I should remind you that of the two of us, I'm
the one who has managed to get all his hardware working with GNU/Linux, and
you're the one complaining that it doesn't.

I'm all for open source.
I'd like to ditch MS.
I've tried to ditch MS many times.
Just won't do what I need done.

Then you're trying to ditch it for the wrong reasons.

You don't get to choose my reasons.

Nope, but it is my prerogative to put you in your place if you're
complaining about things over which your own narrowmindedness deprived you
of the right to complain.

Think about what happened with electric cars. Electric cars
ain't gonna happen because the gap from gas to electric is too big.
The solution was the hybrid. Takes longer, but evolves along
with the necessary infrastructure to make the transition to electric
vehicles.

Any new technology always needs time to get absorbed by the unwashed masses.
People are by nature conservative, and the powers that be are even more
conservative when they have something to gain from not letting a new
technology emerge onto the market.

Linux has the same problem. You need to transition from windows users
running windows hardware using the windows metaphor. Otherwise, it
ain't happenin'.

Logical fallacy. GNU/Linux was never intended to compete with anything, and
yet it is gaining market share. Slowly, but steadily. This is a
testimonial of its quality and reliability, since nowhere is there an
economic entity pushing its adoption.

Grandma ain't never gonna edit /usr/lib/onandonandon.

You'd be surprised at the number of grannies and toddlers already using
GNU/Linux and preferring it over Windows.

GNU/Linux is not a substitute for Windows, it's a substitute for
proprietary UNIX - think Solaris, SCO Unix(ware), IRIX, AIX, et al - and
a very good one at that too.

Can't disagree. Just not interested.

If you're not interested, then you also forfeit the right to complain.

Buying linux compliant hardware is not an option.

Really? And why not?

Because it costs money and I already have two lifetimes supply of
hardware that works fine in windows...jury is still out on Vista.

Then stick with Windows, but then don't diss on GNU/Linux.

Those components would not be more expensive than the ones for Windows.
On the contrary even. You only just have to keep your eyes open and step
back from the glamorous salestalk.

Pop into Circuit City and ask for the linux-compatible hardware aisle.
Let me know how it works out.

Sure, if you buy me the plane ticket to fly over to the US. I'm in Belgium.

On the other hand, you do have a computer and an internet connection. You
look at the hardware you intend to buy, and then look for any conflicts or
so when it is used in GNU/Linux. That way you also find out what to buy
and what not.

But you have prodded me to swap in the linux drive and play
with it some more.

Good! That's how you'll learn, by using it. It's actually all about
logic.

Ok, here's what happened.
Only disk I hadn't written over was Fedora Core 4. Plugged it in.
Let's play an mp3.
plugged in a flash drive with some mp3's on it. To my surprise,
linux mounted and opened the flash drive.
Draggged an mp3 to the music player.
"Can't play this media type..but you can download a player that can.
Click here. Boy, that's' cool. Clicked it. Lan worked, firefox worked
and took me to the download page. Link for red hat. Clicked and install
started. This is way cool...
Then it happened..."you're missing some dependency, click to cancel".
I fiddled around with the package manager to no avail. Guess no mp3 for
me. Sure, one could figger it out...but why?

If you're interested, then you figure it out. You read the error messages
and you analyze what needs to be done. Eventually you can consult people
on Usenet to point you in the right direction.

If on the other hand you're not interested, then it is a moot point. But
then you have no right to complain, since you were unwilling to hunt down
the cause of your problem in the first place.

So, I installed Knoppix 5.1. I've played mp3's in XMMS before.
Plugged in the flash drive. Icon appeared, but not mounted.
Can't mount...bunch of stuff...bad magic number...

Probably an error with the partition on the flash drive, and most likely
caused by the biological unit between the keyboard and the chair.

Like I said before...different versions understand different hardware.

The differences in hardware support between different GNU/Linux
distributions of similar vintage will be minute, and - as I wrote earlier -
mainly due to the fact that some distributions will not ship with
proprietary drivers/codecs/plugins while others do.

If you can't connect to the internet, write a letter, play music, outa
the box, it's easy to get discouraged and punt the whole thing.

If that's all you care about, then perhaps that is true. However, my
reasons for using GNU/Linux are undoubtedly radically different from yours.
I use it because of what it is and what it allows me to do, not because it
is something that was not made by Microsoft.

If you can't transfer your skills/experience with one linux variant
to another variant, you'll get discouraged.

Most GNU/Linux systems are quite similar under the hood. The only
differences I know of are some minute differences in the way the System
V /init/ system works between RedHat variants and Debian variants, and
between the two of them and the way Gentoo works.

Other than that, most GNU/Linux distributions follow the same layout, and
they are all source-compatible.

Whoever is making these distributions is outa touch with non-geek
consumers.

You've mentioned Knoppix and RedHat. Neither of those is too hard to deal
with. Yet there may be other distributions that would be more to your
liking. There are literally hundreds to choose from.

We don't need six ways to edit a picture and five different
media players. We need ONE of each that works outa the box.

Same remark as higher up. There is a licensing issue to be obeyed, which
may require some additional installation and configuration by the user.
When that is accomplished, every distribution will work.

To be fair, there are instances where I download windows freeware
that requires installing dotnet which requires installing a new installer
to install the installer that installs dotnet that is required by
the intitial install.
My solution to this problem is the same as with linux...the delete key.

The difference is however that in GNU/Linux, the problem is easy to track
down and the error messages are transparent. Windows is by nature (and
intentionally) more oblique and thus harder to impose your will upon.

Windows is much like American democracy. It sucks...just sucks less than
the alternatives. And it's already installed.

Actually, the quote I read - I don't remember who said it but he was a
professor at MIT, I think - was "UNIX is the worst operating system, apart
from all others."

As for democracy, the concept holds a responsibility that those elected
usually so easily forget, because 90% of all politicians worldwide are into
politics because of their own ambitions rather than out of idealism.

And that responsibility of democracy is that a democratically elected regime
has an ethical obligation to make sure that those who have elected it and
who will again elect it in the future become educated enough and given the
means to obtain the intellectual prowess to make such a decision at
election time in the first place.

Dumb regimes breed a dumb population, and dumb populations elect dumb
regimes. I could make some comments about George W. Bush right here and
right now, but I think it would be more wise to point to South Africa for
instance - a country I'm quite familiar with - where things like AIDS and
poverty are simply treated as non-existent, with as a result that South
Africa has the highest population percentage in the world of people
suffering from AIDS, and also the highest crime rate.

But then again, what can you expect from a country whose future president -
since the ANC is by far the largest political party in the country, the one
holding the ANC leadership is by definition also going to be the next
president - says that the cure for AIDS is to take a long shower.
(Additionally, that same future president is also a known rapist and
convicted fellon.)

So, how are we doin', rooster?

I'm doing just fine, thank you. I was already using GNU/Linux
exclusively before I even had an internet connection at home, and even
before I started using GNU/Linux, I had only been using Windows 3.0 for
about 6 months, and NT 4.0 for about two years, with over 5 years of OS/2
in between.

Yeah, yeah. I was writing product proposals (for unix-based engineering
workstations) with vi and nroff back in the days when you had to walk
two buildings over to get the printout to see if your formatting was
correct.
That don't make me smart...just old.

Oh, I've also seen the days where you had to get your printouts from "an
operator" a few stories down, and I've also run printouts from dBase IV on
MS-DOS through a Star LC-10 dot matrix printer that required me to sit by
my desk all afternoon - and make a couple of hours overtime - because I had
to hold the paper in place so the tractor feed wouldn't mess up. <grin>

See, I already knew of the existence of other operating systems than what
usually came with a computer before I bought my very first one. That was
in the days of MS-DOS 5.0, and I have always felt that it was up to the
customer to decide what operating system they wanted to use, not up to
the hardware vendor.

By the way, there is a long and dirty story behind the reason why most
consumergrade PC manufacturers sell Windows-only PCs - a trend that's now
slowly starting to wear off, thankfully - but I'll save that for another
day. Has to do with the fine print of Windows endorsement deals and all.
Mob tactics etc. Nasty stuff. :-/

Not long at all. Monopoly and big money gets you what you want. Always
has, always will. The only way to gain significant share on MS is for
some entity with VERY deep pockets and an internal demand for zillions
of units to take 'em on.

Apple also seems willing to be taking that role onto themselves now.
Probably a result of the fact that their own hardware now shares the same
processor platform as Windows and can even be made to work with Windows.

Don't get me wrong, though. Apple is just as badly a predator as Microsoft
is. The difference however is that Apple doesn't have a monopoly yet as it
has always maintained sort of an elitist attitude. Apple users typically
feel superior to Windows users and are possibly even more oblivious of any
other operating systems existing.

The EU comes to mind. They're already plenty pissed with MS.

Damn right about that. Microsoft have overstepped themselves quite a bit in
Europe, thinking they could get away with things as easily over here as
they have in the US. With both the Republicans and Democrats in their
pockets in the US, they've had it easy so far, but that boat won't float
over here.

Maybe China.

China has already released its own GNU/Linux distribution called Red Flag
Linux - it is after all still a communist regime - and they are definitely
not too keen on Microsoft. Several Latin American regimes have also
already thrown Microsoft out with regard to the software platform used by
official government departments and agencies.

And if it happens, it won't be free either.

That remains to be seen. GNU/Linux is Free & Open Source Software, and thus
by definition it will always be available free of charge, regardless of
some GNU/Linux distributors offering their distro commercially only.

Six college dropouts with yet another linux variant ain't gonna make it
happen.

I have no idea whom you are talking about now.

--
*Aragorn*
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)
.

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