Re: Peterson's Death Sentence

From: Willem (willem_at_stack.nl)
Date: 01/31/05 

Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:21:19 +0000 (UTC)

John wrote:
) OK. I agree with you and John Woodgate and Kevin that color is a
) continuum, but I don't agree that separate consciousnesses spring into
) being indiscriminately across the spectrum.

I've never said that consciousnesses spring into being period, let alone
indiscriminately across the spectrum. 'spring into being' implies some
kind of timescale, which is totally irrelevant when measuring if an entity
is conscious or not.

) What I'm _trying_ to do is to point out that I believe that
) consciousness arises after a discrete period of development, that
) period of development being akin to walking down an avenue with
) intersecting streets, each intersection being where a particular
) consciousness occurs.

Are you talking about consciousness in an individual during his lifespan,
or consciousness on the evolutionary scale, as a measurement ? I think the
former. Doesn't really matter anyway, because either way the arguyments
are pretty much the same.

) As far as I recall, you posted that it was
) "more like" consciousnesses traversing a spectrum and I took exception
) to that and used the single-electron analogy to show what I consider
) to be the discrete nature of the event. Then, the discussion abrubtly
) changed from one of the discrete VS continuous nature of bugeoning
) consciousness to "this is what color really is". Fair enough, but I
) _still_ think it's a discrete event, and I don't believe you've proved
) that it isn't.

Where did this 'event' business come from ? Is it an event in the lifespan
of an individual ?

Anyway, what I'm talking about is that viewing a certain entity as either
conscious or not conscious is strictly less general than viewing it as
having a certain degree of consciousness. This stems from the fact that
you can easily go from a spectrum to a discrete yes/no result by imposing a
certain threshold.

In other words: viewing consciousness as a spectrum is more general,
and therefore more useful.

)>) If you're interested in what he thinks, it would probably be a good
)>) idea to read the relevant post or get _him_ to clear it up instead of
)>) guessing about it.
)>
)>I don't care.
)
) ---
) You should, since you're claiming to that Kevin _hasn't_ contradicted
) himself, and your argument is based on that claim.

Nonsense. I don't need to know what someone thinks to be able to decide
if some of his statements contradict each other or not. All I need is to
investigate those statements. Which I did adequately.

)>I refuted your assertion that Kevin has contradicted himself.
)>Would you care to actually address this point, or are you just going
)>to attack me on meaningless side points ?
)
) ---
) Either one is just fine with me, but if you want to discuss the
) so-called "refutation", I suggest you acquaint yourself with the
) earlier material of Kevin's which took a position opposite to the one
) you're referring to.

What you did was paraphrase some of Kevins statements, and then claim that
these statements contradict each other. I refuited that claim, based
solely on your paraphrasing.
If there is some other material that you did not mention in your original
claim that he contradicted himself, it is your fault for not quoting or
paraphrasing it.

Put more simply:

K: 'statement 2'.
J: K said 'statement 1' some while back which contradicts 'statement 2'.
me: Those two statements do not contradict one another.

)>Prove it. Refute my argument that shows you can support both viewpoints.
)
) ---
) OK, refresh my memory. What are the two viewpoints?

Here's the quote:
----- Start quote -----
>This is simply speculation. I disagree completely. There is no evidence
>whatsoever that consciousness has a threshold. There are good arguments
>against such a view. 

---
Yet, in an earlier post, you stated:
"Complete nonsense. We only need you be concerned about a "life" after
it has first become *conscious*. Before something becomes conscious it
is no more then a carrot. What *makes* a life, that needs
consideration for its *own* sake, is a brain. Period."
Which seems to indicate that you _do_ consider there to be a period
before which consciousness occurs and a period after.  Such being the
case, then there must necessarily be a threshold between the two
states, that threshold being when consciousness occurs.
I don't believe you can support both viewpoints simultaneously, so
when do you suppose you'll waffle back to your earlier so-firmly-held
belief?
----- End quote -----
To paraphrase, the two viewpoints are:
1 -
There is a period when something is not conscious, and a period when it is.
2 -
Conscionsness does not have a threshold.
These are not contradictory because, as I have said earlier, the existence
of the points 'not conscious' and 'conscious' do *not* imply that there is
a threshold where 'not conscious' suddenly becomes 'conscious'; there can
also be a gradient somewhere between those two points.
There.  Refute that.
) That's not a reason. I'll act as I please and comment on the behavior
) of others whenever and however I please, with or without your
) approval, thank you very much.
Most people would call that two-faced and quite arrogant, and I would
have to agree.  Anyway, I'll consider this statement an admission that
anyone can dismiss your comments on their behaviour, as you do theirs.
SaSW, Willem
-- 
Disclaimer: I am in no way responsible for any of the statements
            made in the above text. For all I know I might be
            drugged or something..
            No I'm not paranoid. You all think I'm paranoid, don't you !
#EOT

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