Re: [OT] Two Kinds of Linux Runners

On 2008-02-11, Chris Cox <ccox_nopenotthis@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tom Newton wrote:
...

Apprentices take and masters give.

That's a simplification, but basically accurate.

The people I am referring to never become masters and
give back. They are forever apprentices.

And thus business will have to step in and fill the
masters' positions, but they will do it from love of
money, not love of Linux. They will not be trying to
create new masters except those who jump through
endless 'educational' hoops.

Instead, they will strive to keep the vast majority of Linux
runners ignorant and dependent. That's how business works.

That's not Linux, it is Windows/Mac.

Perhaps... but AFAIK, it's the basic definition of
what a "consumer" is. The world is big enough to
handle consumers of GNU/Linux (IMHO).

I think that's a contradiction in terms, Chris.

What they will end up consuming will bear little resemblence
to Linux as we know it.

It won't be open source or free. It won't be a cooperative,
amateur phenonemon.

And it will try to destroy whatever remains of the real Linux
community. That's the nature of Business.

Like I say below: We may very well have to become outlaws.


...

For mail I use mutt, fetchmail, msmtp, and procmail.

For news, slrn and leafnode.

I like slrn as well. Nothing wrong or right about
your selections there. Those all great tools.

...

"Appliance operator" is a way of referring to people who use
technology they don't understand. Who don't want to understand
it. Ignorant consumers.

I'm ignorant. I admit that I do not know everything. However,
I do enjoy making software for the "ignorant". I like it when
they don't care to know why or how it works... they just accept
that it works. It makes me feel that I actually helped
someone out. I won't stop somebody from knowing the inner
secrets of course... if they want to learn that.



KDE caters to such people. The CLI does not.

The CLI is underrated. No doubt. But... at the same time,
if having graphical interfaces and desktops means more
FOSS users... not sweat off my back.

The CLI and GUI's are hardly exclusive things. I use both.

I just don't use a "desktop" (meaning a collection of apps
that supposedly provides a complete user interface)

When I startx, a bunch of xterms come up (ratpoison is the
window manager I use). Some of them have simple scripts
running in them.

One uses the watch utility to display the output of nmap,
free, ps ax (with grep -v removing all the stuff that's
always there) and ifconfig eth0 (just the IP part), df,
and the top five lines of top.

Another has a file open in vi with a calendar from cal in
it. That's my datebook/calendar.

Another shows the output of tethereal.

Another has a bash menu that opens various docs in seperate
windows at the selection of a number.

One has mutt and another slrn.

The only X app I use with any regularity is firefox, and
that's aliased to "ff".

I also call up bookmarks.sh a select menu, with "b". It allows
me to cd to directories I frequently visit at the selection of
a number, and exits there, running ls -shF.

..
Yep. According to the "gurus" who control the local LUG, Linux
_is_ RH and KDE. They don't even teach the commandline to
newbies, forcing them to rely on the "gurus" whenever KDE doesn't
do what it claims to be able to do. Which is more than it can
ever do...

Hopefully the LUG isn't NTLUG... otherwise I may resemble
that remark. :)

:)) Nope.

Which I truly hope is not the case... really...

Our Beginner's Class tries to focus on both the higher level
applications as well as the shell. Could be improved though.

That's good to hear.


...

I don't fully understand Linux. Not even close. But because
I put my time into learning Linux, rather than learning KDE,
I run it much more effectively than KDE addicts can.

I think you made a smart choice. I always favor those who
desire to learn. But, I know that not everyone is going
to have an interest. Can't make everyone into a computer
nerd (though I do try).

I'm not a nerd. I was just retired and looking for something
to do and stumbled across an old copy of Running Linux in
my favovorite used book store. Read about 1/2 of it and asked
a friend running Mac to download the CDs and bought an old
computer at a garage sale.

The CDs wouldn't boot, so I copied what seemed to be the
necessary files onto the harddrive and after a week or so
of fumbling actually got it to boot.

My oh my, that was satisfying!

I could take any true newbie, someone who has no computer
experience, and teach them to run Linux from CLI faster
than I could teach them to run it using KDE.

KDE is a clone of the Windows user-interface, which is the
only reason we are swamped with couch-potato-appliance-operators.

Well.. more power to you with regards to teaching and helping
folks to learn. But don't totally write off Gnome or KDE.
There's a place for striving to provide people with a
"familiar" interface...

Training wheels have their place... But only for people who
are familiar with their use, as you say...

some like/want choice/freedom,

Some people want someone else to do all their work for them.

Amd they always end up working harder than they would have otherwise....

but are scared of large learning curves... and again, that's
fine... encourage people to learn, but not all have the time
and energy.

Then they can use Windows/Mac. They were MADE for people like
that. Literally.

Remember, people are focused on different things...
some people don't need technology to get in their way or in
their face so to speak. Again, though, don't stop helping
people to learn. Just remember it's their choice to learn or
not.

If they want to be appliance operators, they'll have to find
someone other than me to teach them.


...

I am new to the modern computing world. A long time ago I was
a computer specialist in the Military. In the intervening
years I paid others do that kind of work for me.

But my impression is that computers and the Internet have been
going downhill since the early '80's, when Business took over
from the Scientists and Academics.

I'll agree with that. Again, I didn't particularly like it when
IBM's answer to multi-processing, multi-user personal computing
was giving the world a single processing, single user platform
paradigm. And the hardware design... eww! Gross! I swore I'd
never own an x86 platform. If it weren't for GNU/Linux, I
probably would never have gone that route. GNU/Linux made it
possible for an Unix guy like me to have something very Unix
like without spending an arm and a leg.

Unix boxes back in 1994 would cost you >$10K.

I've heard that!

I too am very grateful for Linux. If it didn't exist I wouldn't
be exploring this fascinating world of computers and the internet.


...

I am for choices too: If you are a
couch-potato/appliance-operator, or a technocrat or a business
person, then Windows/Mac already exist for you.

Choose one of them.

And stay the hell out of Linux!

:) Well.. I'll just have to disagree. I understand your concern,
but I just don't think the world is so small. But I'll admit,
there are days where I dream of the computing world prior what
we have today. For computer nerds, life was better back then.

I don't think you are a nerd.

I'm certainly not. Not so very long ago I got in a fight
with a redneck jerk in a tavern who was 20 years younger than me,
and I stomped his ass for him.

Of course, I've spent thousands of hours in a dojo, so it
wasn't exactly a fair fight.

But _he_ thought it was an unfair fight in the other direction :-)


Btw, you could also use your same style argument against
all programmers that use a high level languages rather than
assembler...

Nah. I'm not an extremist. High level languages are very practical.
Especially bash.

...

But we are being overwhelmed by
couch-potato-appliance-operators and those who cater to them.
Majority rules, and that crowd will allow/make Linux become
non-free and non-open-source.

People like me will become outlaws.

Is it enough? Who can say? I do think it has gotten better
though. People are starting to see some choices out there
besides Microsoft and Apple.

Sorry. But that's KDE/freedesktop.org propaganda.

They aren't learning Linux. They are just putting their
training wheels on a different bicycle.

Have you looked at the complexity of what freedesktop.org
software is trying to accomplish? I know you're seeing it as
an end user, but the guts of what they are trying to do is
pretty interesting.

You are talking about DCOP?

Lots of things are very interesting that are very bad ideas...

Is it perfect? No. And sometimes I think
they've lost their marbles on their implementation. But I
do understand some of their motives as to why we need HAL,
consolekit, policykit, etc.

It's not their motives that worry me. It's the motives of the
people who are financing them and KDE that scare me to death.

Geeks will be geeks.

When they are controlled by amoral corporations they bring us
stuff like doomsday viruses and nuclear weapons.

And yes... their goal is to come up with a desktop environment
that can more or less replace what most computer users are
using. That is very true.

And it will never happen. Computers (of the kind we are concerned
with here) are simply not washing machines or TVs or microwaves.
They are too complex.

Also, something to consider, since you keep mentioning KDE
in particular, most of the work in freedesktop.org really is
there to help Gnome. In fact parts of freedesktop.org aren't
fully exploited in KDE.. and that's because KDE already had
an architecture in place. KDE4 will use more of this new
"standard" desktop paradigm... we'll see if it dumbs down KDE
or not.

I try to always say "KDE (etc)".

But I didn't realize the above. Thanks.

Haven't people learned that if it says "free", it is anything
but?

...

Thanks for replying,

You're welcome. Take the time to read the replies...

I think I did better this time. :-\

All the hostility from the idiot trolls, and the ignorance
from psuedo-gurus, is quite distracting.

You've given me a lot to research and think about.

Tom, I happily discuss things... and no.. we don't have to see
eye-to-eye especially on philosophy or direction... technology
however can be a place where we can find common ground.

I have enjoyed the discussion.

And I still am. You know a lot of stuff that I need to know about.

And are very good at presenting it in a comprehensible and easy-to-digest
way.

I can see why you teach at your LUG.

Tom

--
calhobbit (at)
gmail [DOT] com
.

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